HPMoR and the Limits of Rationality
One woman's quest to understand the Harry Potter fanfic that created the modern world.
Interactive transcripts by Regina: https://hpmoralor.sepionics.com/
Email: hpmoralorcast@proton.me
HPMoR and the Limits of Rationality
Ep. 10: Testing Positive
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In chapter 8, Hermione Granger meets Harry Potter and is subjected to a series of tests. Our hosts are joined by Lesley, resident fandom person, to play a game, present deconstructed tropes to the Chopped judges, and court corporate sponsorships.
CONTENT WARNING: discussion of rape and racism from 15:43 to 39:56.
Citations and further reading
- Elisa's show notes: https://www.tumblr.com/ecc-poetry/tagged/hpmor%20and%20the%20limits%20of%20rationality
- HPMOR, Chapter 8, Eliezer Yudkowsky. https://hpmor.com/chapter/8
- “Eliezer, the Person,” section “1.6: Falling out of school” and “1.7: ‘I can’t do anything.’” Eliezer Yudkowsky. The Low Beyond, 2000. https://web.archive.org/web/20010205221413/http://sysopmind.com/eliezer.html#timeline_falling
- HPMOR snapshot up to chapter 21. https://drive.proton.me/urls/9HBTQR7TA0#l2zIorSOyr7m
- “I've also tried a rewrite on Ch. 7 which I don't feel is a literary improvement, but which does make it clearer that Harry is talking about the Enlightenment having mostly solved the problem of nobility rather than the problem of rape, and which eliminates the explicit reference to Saudi Arabia and the Congo as specific non-Enlightenment countries. Most readers, it's pretty clear, didn't take that as racist, but it now also seems clear that if someone is told to *expect* racism and pointed at the chapter, that's what they'll see. Aren't preconceptions lovely things?” Less Wrong (Yudkowsky)’s review explaining his rewrite of Chapter 7, Yudkowsky. Fanfiction.net, 30 June 2010. https://www.fanfiction.net/r/5782108/27/1/
- “HPMOR: The (Probably) Untold Lore,” Gretta Duleba, Eliezer Yudkowsky. LessWrong, 25 July 2025. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/FY697dJJv9Fq3PaTd/hpmor-the-probably-untold-lore
- “Lotteries: A Waste of Hope,” Yudkowsky. LessWrong, 12 April 2007. https://www.lesswrong.com/s/FrqfoG3LJeCZs96Ym/p/vYsuM8cpuRgZS5rYB
- “New Improved Lottery,” Yudkowsky. LessWrong, 13 April 2007. https://www.lesswrong.com/s/FrqfoG3LJeCZs96Ym/p/QawvGzYWhqdyPWgBL
- “The New Atlantis,” Francis Bacon. 1626: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2434/pg2434-images.html
- To Relieve the Human Condition: Bioethics, Technology, and the Body, Gerald P. McKenny. State University of New York Press, 1997. https://archive.org/details/torelievehumanco0000mcke
- “Irrational numbers,” Rod Pierce. Math Is Fun, retrieved 2025.: https://www.mathsisfun.com/irrational-numbers.html
- “Positive Bias: Look Into the Dark,” Yudkowsky. LessWrong, 27 Aug 2007.: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/rmAbiEKQDpDnZzcRf/positive-bias-look-into-the-dark
- “On the failure to eliminate hypotheses in a conceptual task,” P.C. Wason. Quarterly Journal of Experimental Psychology, 1960. https://bear.warrington.ufl.edu/brenner/mar7588/Papers/wason-qjep1960.pdf
Welcome to HP War and the Limits of Rationality, a podcast about unlearning cognitive biases and replacing them with cognitohazards.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. I love that.
AntheaI'm your host, Anthea. I am joined today by my co-host. Co-host? Co-host.
JakeI am the host of Jake.
AntheaThat's Jake. I also have with me Alisa. Would you like to come and meet my stark father?
JakeWe're offending somebody.
AntheaAnd today we are joined by a special guest, my dear friend, one of my oldest friends in Seattle. That's Leslie. Oh, hey. Hi, Leslie. Again, I'm having a conversation with you're having a conversation with the back of my head because of the setup of this recording.
SPEAKER_06Listen, I'm not frequently making eye contact with people anyway, so this is top-notch.
AntheaRight, right. Um, okay, so everybody knows who everybody who's been listening to this knows who Jake and Elisa are. Who cares? Yeah.
JakeYou took the words out of my mouth.
AntheaYep. Leslie, I want to, I want to get to know you a little bit. Um I already asked some of you the asked some of these questions earlier, but uh what you've been listening to the podcast, right? I have. Okay, so you're and you're you're caught up to where we are in the story.
SPEAKER_06This is what my podcast addict says. But I do not control the remember.
AntheaSuper fair. That also goes for everybody here, I think. I even I am getting to a point where I forget what we've talked about at what point on the podcast. And Elisa, who re-listens to it, will be like, I can quote this bit from memory, and I'm like, Jesus Christ. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I do control the remember. Yeah. I also have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force in case anybody was wondering who has that. Yeah, yeah. It is it is Elisa Chavez.
JakeNow I'm a I was wondering before, but now I have questions.
AntheaI will not answer them. Yeah.
JakeExcept with force I.
AntheaYes. Correct. Um, Leslie, did you have any familiarity with this fic before I brought it into your life?
SPEAKER_06I sure didn't, which honestly, not sure how I missed it since I was nose deep and fanp. That was a big part of the fan.
AntheaThat was gonna be my next question. Is like, you are, I think you're the closest I have to a Harry Potter fandom expert. Oops. So, like, what's your history with with the Harry Potter fandom been like?
SPEAKER_06Um, one of my friends in middle school said I couldn't leave her house until I read the first chapter of the first book in like seventh grade. So that was the summer the fourth book came out. Yeah. Um so a little like light kidnapping, it's fine. Yeah.
JakeUm honestly pretty tame by this podcast, so you're good.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, it's fine. And then that summer I read all four books like 14 times. Yeah, yeah. Sounds right. Yeah, and then as one of your autistic fandom girlies, it just kind of but all aboard the SS Harmony. Hey! Thank you.
AntheaAll right, yes. Do you want to define that for people who may not know the the ship naming conventions?
JakeYeah, I mean the people that aren't in this room. Uh everyone in this room knows.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, sure. Yeah, that's gonna be your Harry Hermione shippers. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
JakeI I probably should have extrapolated that, frankly, now that you spell that out.
SPEAKER_06Well, yeah. I was I was over there on theportkey.org.
AntheaNice, nice! This is what I'm talking about. This is you you predate the era of Archive of Our Own. Which is not to say that we're not all big Archive of Our Own fans in this house. It's wild that people are still over at the pit of voles.
SPEAKER_06That is FFM. Crazy. I'm like, what? Yes. That's crazy. That's wild. That's banana. Interesting.
AntheaI got I got like a new follower or review or something on my fanfiction.net uh account within the last couple of weeks. And uh, but it was clearly a bot. So like it doesn't Right. You expect that kind of thing. Yeah.
JakeDoes that robot know where it's at? Like, did that robot get lost somewhere?
SPEAKER_06Whatever bots are trawling live journal are always liking the same post. Well, I think they watch each other.
JakeYeah, I was gonna say maybe it just really speaks to the robot soul, that particular post. So they're just letting each other know, like, hey, you should check this one out.
SPEAKER_06It's not even like it's not even like a story either. It's just some like, I am 12, here's this thing I said 20 years ago.
JakeListen, I don't need Wait, you were 12 and you said something 20 years before then?
SPEAKER_06Yes.
JakeI would be interested in that article too.
AntheaTruly, truly. That seems like a great way to poison LLMs, honestly. Oh, yeah. Get some get some of that content out there. Yes, exactly, exactly. Okay. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so you were you were you were in it from you were you were in the fandom, you were you were reading fanfic on like the ac like the individual archives at as well as I presume the more centralized ones. Yes. Yeah. Um this is part of the reason I'm really excited to have you here is I just recently came across a quote from Yadkowski where he says a fundamental fact about Harry Potter and the methods of rationality is it's not quite set in the world of canon. It's set in the world of fan fiction. Uh I hate it. Oh, get fucked. That totally knew I was gonna make you yell. That explains so much about Draco no Delaney here. I mean, that's I think that's very interesting, right? That it is like the things I was saying on the last episode about like, I think that this version of Ron is basically fanon Ron and not canon Ron. It's like, oh, correct. Alright, great.
JakeAnd for some listeners, but no one in this room, it's like the rebuild of Evangelion instead of a reboot of Evangelion.
SPEAKER_02Correct.
JakeYeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_02I actually do someone know what that means. Okay.
AntheaNot 100%, but somewhat. I'm also very glad that uh that we do have a listener who picked up on the references that you're making, Jake. Yes, no, the person's gonna be a little bit more.
JakeYou're seeing it, I love you.
AntheaYes, yes. Oh, this is so nice. Yeah, yeah, we're creating community. Um there are these persistent online rumors that Yudkowski never read the original books and that he only read fanfiction and watched the movies.
SPEAKER_02That's so funny.
AntheaI I don't think this is true. I think that he he it does, I think he did, he may have started HP more uh based only on fanfiction, but it's really clear that he has read the books. Like he he competently references minutia from the books. So I guess you could potentially get a lot of that stuff through Phantom Osmosis and reading fanfiction, but I think I think he's I think it's uh clear that he has read all of the books at some point.
SPEAKER_06Something, something, first principle, something, something.
AntheaRight?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, right. I'm gonna start a rumor that Yad Yad doesn't know how to read.
JakeI was I was contemplating saying the same thing. Yeah!
SPEAKER_06Him and the Techuk brothers, let's go.
AntheaUm, but I do think it's increasingly important for us to base our understanding, like to understand that he uh is deconstructing the source material by deconstructing uh secondary texts first and then deconstructing the source material.
SPEAKER_02But he's not actually deconstructing the secondary text in a lot in these cases, it seems like in some cases it's like I I agree. It seems like he's straight up replicating Fan and Draco, for instance. Right.
JakeI think it's more pastiche than deconstruction.
SPEAKER_02Right.
AntheaHe may, I think he thinks he's deconstructing the stuff.
JakeYeah, that's that's fair.
AntheaRight? Like I think that his his intention may be that. Whether he is um effective at that is a different question. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Something that someone might call a self-deception.
SPEAKER_06Someone might or he just like read some stuff and then internalized it and was like, this is totally new. I'm the the first one to ever do this thing. Right.
AntheaRight. That doesn't sound like what he does with everything else. Nope, doesn't sound like him.
SPEAKER_02Hey, I actually have a quick question before we get to old business. Yeah, please. This is actually fresh business, I think. Does Yadkowski have any degrees in science?
AntheaNo. Maybe some honorary ones, but no.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, honorary doesn't count. So he's never been through any kind of what about math?
AntheaNot that I know of.
unknownThank you.
AntheaAs to the best of my knowledge, uh, and I I would need to go double to check this, but as I as I recall, he um he left formal schooling uh sometime around like middle school. I can't remember if he if he made it through middle school and then uh and then left formal schooling like at high school or what, but he he to the best of my knowledge, never um went through any formal schooling uh in in higher ed.
SPEAKER_02So he definitely missed peak hamburger essay years.
AntheaI think so, yes. I think that's as we've discussed off offline. Yes, Alisa and I were talking about how we both got like five paragraph essay uh uh teaching in pretty young.
JakeLike oh yeah, I I could bust one of those out in like 20 minutes.
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah. Do you remember when, like what grade you got taught that approximately?
JakeEither eighth or ninth. It was either like last year middle school or first year high school, somewhere around there.
AntheaYeah, Leslie, do you remember getting five-paragraph essay?
SPEAKER_06I sure do because I got one back once in high school that between every paragraph had the word transition question mark. And I'm like, um, I thought it was fine, and all my friends thought it was fine. Turns out we just all had ADHD and they were able to track.
JakeAnd also, like, I might, I don't know. Gender's complicated, but like I don't I don't realize I was giving those vibes here.
AntheaYeah, so we yeah, I think, I think, yes, like a lot of I I remember getting five-paragraph essay uh in elementary school, but I think it's more typical to be getting that in like middle or high school. So yes, I think I think Yadkowski probably missed that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and as we discussed, I'm sure that I was getting mine in at middle school at the Windsor School Figues, but I definitely remember ninth grade hamburger essay lessons.
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Old business. Corrections, as it, as it were. Um, okay, I have been informed by an Aussie friend that the best cricket batsman of all time was not. We said Ron Bradman.
JakeI that was the best. I I I'm pretty confident on Brad. I think that syllable's right.
AntheaYou are correct. Okay. Yes.
JakeThat's all I was sure of.
AntheaThat's totally, totally fair. She she was just like, I could hear, I could hear my cricketer mother like having a fit in the background. I think of her brain, not of like listening to it.
JakeBut it's a magic cackling cricketer in the background.
AntheaBut uh, the correct best cricket batsman of all time is Sir Don Bradman, aka the Don. And now I'm going to tell you about Don Bradman because I've learned some great stuff about this guy. Please tell us about the Don. Okay, according to Wikipedia, he was so good that the English team in the 30s developed a specific bowling style called bodyline or fast leg theory.
JakeOh man, that is a great band slash dance team.
SPEAKER_02Yes! Uh, in and about fast leg theory, if we pull our weight, we can all make it to sectionals.
JakeNo, your legs can't take it.
AntheaUh so they developed a specific bowling style uh to thwart him specifically. The captain of the team, Douglas Jardine, uh Jardine, J-A-R-D-I-N-E.
JakeJardin, yeah, yeah.
AntheaJardine, um, is described in a cricket-uncovered video as, quote, an Oxford-educated aristocrat with a deep-seated dislike for Australians. Good. Problematic. He instructed his bowler to aim not for the wickets behind the batsman like you're supposed to, but to aim for the batsman's head.
JakeThis is like exactly what they did against Michael Jordan.
AntheaWhen he was like, Yeah, no, like George's like, just injure him.
JakeNo, they got and they called it like Jordan strategies. This was the exact same thing. But then what happened? Michael Jordan went and got super jacked before the next season. It's like, what now?
SPEAKER_02Incredible. That's great. Imagine if Nancy Kerrigan had had a gun.
AntheaUm, Jard uh uh Jardine instructed his players to call Don Bradman the little bastard.
SPEAKER_03This is so mean. So during this guy, this guy's just better than you.
JakeIt's basically a slur by Oxford standards. Exactly.
AntheaDuring the third test in Adelaide in 1933, the England bowler hit one of the Australian batsmen, not not the Don, one of the other batsmen. They were just using the strategy on all of the guys who were up at the batteries.
JakeIt's like his teammates are literally catching strays at the end of the day. He said literally.
AntheaThey hit he hit one of the batsmen in the chest so hard that he staggered away, doubled over in pain, and the spectators were reportedly on the verge of rioting. This escalated to the level of an international incident when Australian cricket officials cabled English cricket officials accusing the English team of unsportsmanlike conduct. And England reacted England, of course, reacted to this with grace and good banners because they're all they're all good British No. That's not at all what happened. Unsportsman-like behavior is an Oxford slur, I believe. But I mean, yes, they threatened to withdraw from the rest of the series, and there was so much anxiety that it would damage trade relations that the Australian Prime Minister had to be brought in to talk to the Australian cricket officials to talk them into retracting the accusation of unsportsman-like. Yes.
JakeMan was so good at cricket, he made an international incident.
AntheaHe literally did.
SPEAKER_06But like it wasn't even him. Right, yes. The English team started it. Like, he was just good at the game. You have to apologize because you held a person who's trying to do a legitimate harm to the your to your people to account.
AntheaLiterally, literally.
SPEAKER_06That seems very British, actually.
AntheaI was what I'm saying. Yes. So uh Australia did withdraw or retract the accusation. England won the series. Jardine went to his grave insisting that his coaching was all totally cool. Totally cool, guys. You should not be mad at me. Um so yeah, uh, The Times regrets the error uh of Ron Bradman. Uh sorry, Don Bradman, Sir Don.
JakeOkay, you made it sound like I was like way off. I was one letter away from the first time.
AntheaListen, I I regret it's fine. It's fine.
JakeOkay.
AntheaHe gave me an excuse to learn this great stuff. Um I regret nothing. Shout out to Ashie. Thank you for the correction. Thanks, Ashie. Love you, girl. Please let me come back to your country. Okay, next part. Content warning. Racism. And also more violent sexual threats. Um? Yeah. What?
SPEAKER_06Oh boy. Something tells me no. Well, okay. For a while. If ever.
SPEAKER_03So, okay, so I'm so, I'm so, I'm sorry. We just started, we didn't even start the thing. We're like right here and just like, oh my god.
JakeI don't know how before this you're like, I'm not gonna be yelling about this. But then as soon as we get to the preamble to it.
SPEAKER_03Like, excuse me, open mouth and screaming bees come out.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I'm gonna really fuck with the levels. All those bees.
AntheaOh, so many bees.
JakeI'm gonna have to get a mic for each of the bees.
AntheaMm-hmm. Okay. Um, I will put a note in the in the show notes about like if if you are like, holy shit, I skipped the episode about with all the rape stuff, and now you're bringing it back. I'll put a note in the show notes to to skip for where you can skip forward to to skip this part. That's good. That's good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And like, literally, if you choose to skip any discussion of rape that takes place in this fanfic, what are you missing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Except weird racism also that gets bundled up with the rape stuff.
AntheaYeah, so here's the thing. Um while I was doing research for the last episode, I came across several references that indicated that at some point Yadkowski had rewritten some part of that part of the chapter.
JakeUh that good, and he left this part in on purpose then.
AntheaYes. Cool.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, this is the second try at it. That's that's what we got. Oh, so Jake's constant refrain, which is a good refrain of this is like draft zero, is like, oh, this one is actually he went through a draft and was like, that stays in.
AntheaYeah, and we actually have to we have to abandon the idea that this is all first draft, um, because it has actually been edited.
SPEAKER_06Have we considered that um Godkowski himself is just first draft?
AntheaLike just just like imbues everything with first draftness. Yeah, yeah.
JakeI don't know if I want to see what the second draft is gonna be of him.
AntheaSo, as you might imagine, I was rapidly curious about what this must have been like before the edit, because again, this is where we ended up. Um, and I was having a lot of trouble finding uh like a pre-edit version of it. Thankfully, shout out to uh Redditor uh Mipece, M-I-P-E-C-E 6708. I'm gonna choose to pronounce your name as Mipece. Uh actually Don Mipece.
JakeI think the Swedes, Italians, and the Australians have offended this person.
AntheaI think so. Uh uh thankfully they provide they they got me um an EPUB archive of the fic up to chapter 21. Um and a different Redditor, Ultra Noob, uh, helped me find a Tumblr post that preserved some of Yadkowski's rationale for his edits. So I have I have a little more information about what it used to be like. Okay. So what changed? Firstly, the level of explicit threat and misogyny from Draco is actually even higher.
unknownCool.
AntheaCool cool. In the first version, it was higher. Oh, okay. It went down. It went down in this in this final.
JakeI think permutation's bad, but I thought, you know, if it was a draft, it's like, nah, I gotta I gotta crank it up a bit. That would have been a good thing.
AntheaIt would have been wild, and I would have believed it, but I would have been like, oh gosh. Right, right. Um uh he calls Luna a bitch and a slut. Uh he says that murder is a lot more serious than, quote, some little girl crying rape, end quote. Um he explicitly says he's waiting to assault Luna until he's old enough to get an erection, which we speculated about. That's terrible that we were correct about that. Yeah, I don't think.
JakeRay, I hate being right.
AntheaYeah. Um when Harry says he wants to marry Luna to protect her and says he'll owe Draco a favor, Draco demurs because, quote, there's plenty of girls out there who deserve it. Uh. Uh, so it it all basically does what I think it was meant to do, which is shock and disgust me. Um, and based on reader commentary from R slash HP Moore from around 2013, it caused enough stir in his audience that Yudkowski felt like he had to rewrite it. I don't know exactly when.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's so funny.
AntheaBut like clearly there was enough uh an enough response from his audience that he felt like he had to rewrite it.
JakeSo this was kind of a I'm sorry you're all so upset, Maya Culpa. Not him looking back on.
AntheaOh, it's so interesting that you say that. Alright, okay, cool.
JakeI have seen- I hate being a Cassandra, but it keeps happening.
AntheaI've seen fans describe this rewrite as, quote, reducing the level of offense people take and quote, conforming to reader insecurities, end quote. Reader insecurities? To be fair, other fans say that they like the edits and think that the fact that it's toned, that it's pulled back, uh, is better. Is like more is a more restrained version and therefore better.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, I'm gonna hang on to my I'm just gonna hang on to the word insecurities for a second, please keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, just sit with that for a minute. I'll sit with my discomfort.
AntheaYeah, yeah, you're gonna have to. Um in more in more recent years, you can still find fans saying that they have tried to get their friends to read the fic, and their friends were like, like, dipped out at chapter seven because of this scene. Um, and so some people recommend having newbies start at chapter eight instead, which is where we're bringing Leslie in tonight today at chapter eight. But then you won't misunderstand the planning fallacy.
SPEAKER_03I like it just makes me like I And the bystander effect. Where would you be without misunderstanding both the bystander effect and the planning fallacy?
AntheaI mean, a great question. Ooh, and you're also gonna be wrong about the fundamental attribution error. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna miss a lot of stuff if you start at chapter eight, it seems like. Yeah, there's a lot of teaching.
JakeBut how hot is his aunt? We'll ever know.
AntheaThat's true.
SPEAKER_02Like she's not she's not around anymore. Like you'll never know how hot Ampetunia is, and you'll never know about lunar landing photos that that probably don't exist. Come from 2001, a space odyssey shout out to Tumblr user NanoSquid.
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah. Um I just think like like we've all had the experience of recommending a show or a podcast or something to someone, and you know how you have to be like, yeah, you have to get like it starts out kind of rough and you have to go through like some violent rape threats, uh, but then it gets really good.
JakeYeah, I've been reading Berserk, and anyone who knows that, like, where the hell do you recommend people start with that?
SPEAKER_02Oh god. That's fair. I will also say, once this is, I think the worst version that I've ever done of this is um our friend Becca was like, Can I can you can't? Oh, Hugo, Hugo award-winning Hugo Podcaster, Becca? Award-winning podcastrix. Becca um uh was like some years back, was saying, uh, hey, I I'm gonna be on the plane. I want to listen to some, you know, I need some pod fake that I want to listen to. Could people recommend me some stuff? You know, nothing crazy because I'm gonna be on a plane.
AntheaYou were you're gonna be listening to it without headphones?
SPEAKER_02Like what's I just think that for whatever reason, what I recall is that she just was asking specifically for things that were a little tamer. Okay, I'm sure.
JakeAnd then someone chose evil.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um so I, in good faith. I knew it was you! Yes! I told you. So I, in good faith, said, Oh, here's a podfic that I totally forgot had graphic gay sex in it.
SPEAKER_03Like, literally, like cock throbbing. And here's the kicker. I had recorded that pod fiction. I totally forgot what was in it. Like, this is fine for public spaces and children.
SPEAKER_06Sometimes the brain just lets go of the mundane.
SPEAKER_03It's so true. It's so true.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah. It happens to the best of us.
AntheaYeah, yeah. It's hard to recommend stuff. Yeah, it is, it is tough to recommend stuff. Um, listen, I'm I would I hope that people I I would not be surprised if people recommend this podcast with uh you gotta get through some rough audio and oh yeah, absolutely.
JakeYou mean literally every podcast ever?
AntheaExactly. Yes. We're not so bad. We're not special. Um, exactly. Um secondly, so there's there's that stuff that that changed. Secondly, in a move that will surprise no one but was still breathtaking to me. Yadkowski was actually initially completely explicit about what parts of the world this conversation would be normal in. Oh my gosh, really? Was it the Middle East? Quote. There had been 10,000 societies over the history of the world where this conversation could have taken place.
SPEAKER_06I want those listed.
JakeYeah, I was gonna say, please enumerate.
AntheaEven in Mughal Land, it was probably still happening. Somewhere in Saudi Arabia or the darkness of the Congo.
SPEAKER_06Wow.
AntheaIt happened in every place and time that didn't descend directly from the Enlightenment.
SPEAKER_02How dare you gaslight us about accusing him of being a Western chauvinist? No, I know! I know. Oh, wait, but you didn't know that at the time. No, I didn't. Um, no. Okay, I take it back. That was it was it was sporting and fair of you to do that. It was overly charitable of me. Yeah, I mean, what we know right now that you just read, sure, but before that it was fine.
AntheaNow, why why did Gudkowski change this? Well, to quote Most readers, it's pretty clear, didn't take that as racist. But it now also seems clear that if someone is told to expect racism and pointed at the chapter, that's what they'll see. Aren't preconceptions lovely things?
SPEAKER_06I'm sorry you are offended.
AntheaYeah! Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02Oh my fucking god.
JakeYeah, I mean I feel like Heart of Darkness wasn't really a story about race, right? Like it's literally one of those. It's a bunch of trees, it's hard to see under the trees.
SPEAKER_02This is so fucking funny because, like, what a little fucking bitch. Rowing a little bitch fit. Because Yankowski can't take it when his audience disagrees with him. So he has to gaslight them.
SPEAKER_06They're not being rational.
AntheaSo this is this is part of why, like, I'm also I'm I'm I already I wrote down all of the stuff that I'm hated about, so I get to just watch you guys be hated about.
JakeI appreciate you at least of moving the Overton window for Donkey Nun Yankowski, because in the back of my head, a lot of times I'm thinking, what a little bitch, but like I feel like I feel like, okay, I should say something kind of glib instead.
SPEAKER_03Five to seven solid episodes where we didn't call him a little bitch.
JakeYeah. No, it's I mean, we were saying it in a lot of the prettier words, but you know, I appreciate we can we can go mask down now.
SPEAKER_02I you know, look, it's like here's the deal we got new information and then we updated our frame.
JakeWe know better, so we're doing better.
SPEAKER_06As a rationalist, would be exactly happy.
JakeIt'd be irrational to not call him a bitch of any other magnitude.
AntheaThis is Bayesian. This is the thing. This is actually why this makes me mad is the lack of Bayesianism at play. Ooh, okay, go into it, please. Because I love that take. So at several points in the sequences, Yadkowski cites explicitly or otherwise something called Almund's agreement theorem, which comes from a 1976 stats paper by Robert Alman. This theorem states that rational Bayesian agents cannot agree to disagree. Um that guy was fun at parties. Now, Almond is seems, as as I understand it, I think he's defining the idea somewhat more narrowly than the way Yadkowski uses it in many such cases. Um, his theorem says if two people have the same priors and their posteriors for an event A are common knowledge, then these posteriors are equal. Let me explain some jargon.
SPEAKER_02All posteriors are equal in my eyes.
JakeYeah, I know. I'm trying to make some kind of butt joke.
AntheaBut that was good. That was good. Okay, prior, let's understand to mean starting data. Um, posterior means conclusion. Common knowledge means things both people know that the other person knows. Um, I think colloquially, we often use uh common knowledge to mean like widespread information.
SPEAKER_07Uh-huh.
AntheaUh like it's common knowledge that Russell Wilson betrayed Seattle by going to the Broncos. But like if I'm talking to you, Elisa, your sports knowledge is different. Yeah, I didn't even know that until you said that. Right, right. So now it's common knowledge, but it wasn't before. It's kind in that like now you and I share that knowledge. Knowledge shared in common between participants in the whatever. Bingo. Yeah, yes. Um, so now we have we both have that information from which to base our posteriors di butts. Um so what Alman is saying is that if you are starting from the same set of data, your conclusions about those data have to be the same, which I think is logical enough. Like, and if you and as you get new information, you update your starting data and that updates your conclusion. Um Alman cites another paper by a guy named Harsanyi, arguing that when two Bayesian agents come to different conclusions, that difference is the result of differences in information. So if you share information, your conclusions must converge, right? Like if you're looking at one side of a cube and you tell me it's purple, and I'm looking at another side of the same cube and tell you it's green, then we have share we can share that information, and now our common knowledge tells us this cube is both blue or purple and green. Totally.
SPEAKER_02All with me? Yeah, and it sounds a lot like, I mean, when we talk about, for instance, like in our information ecosystem today that is so bifurcated at minimum. Like, yeah, we can't have a civil society unless we all agree on a certain set of facts. Right. So, like, to an extent, even outside of like the realm of science, I can see like, okay, I can see a basic value to certain applications of this.
AntheaYeah, yeah. Like, there's a there's a a sense to which it's like, okay, but I I think and and I think that you can kind of draw out a useful social conclusion of like if you're talking to someone and you think that the two of you have the same set of starting beliefs, but you have come to different conclusions, then it might be worthwhile to investigate oh, we must have a difference of information. To interrogate the fact chain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And see if we can come to a conclusion that is more in more coherent with each other. I think that's fair. So when Yudkowski writes this shit about how rape is super normal in specifically Saudi Arabia and Congo, as contrasted with implicitly European locales. I presume And the fucking United States. That's yes, defending directly from the Enlightenment. You're right, you're right. I presume he is working from a prior that this is true, and a posterior that it is a fine thing to say that no one will disagree with. And then some number of people in his audience are like, hey, that's actually quite racist. One assumes that a lot of people in his audience are Bayesian rationalists just like him, and therefore one would assume that he might take them seriously, but he does not update his priors towards a common knowledge of it is inaccurate to say that brown people are more sexually violent than white people. He updates towards a common knowledge of people have preconceived notions of what is racist, and a posterior of people perceive this thing I said as racist and get offended.
SPEAKER_02So if I And also, like specifically that like people set me up unfairly to be perceived as racist and have inculcated irrationality in others. Right, right. Yes. So it's actually righteous of me to double down.
AntheaRight, right. But he d although he doesn't, he is like, I guess I'll take it out. Well, he says, I guess I'll take it out, but he's saying it like But he's not changing his mind.
SPEAKER_06Right, right.
SPEAKER_02He's not saying he messed up, he's saying, you all messed up so bad in understanding my very cool um Saudi Arabia and Congo disses.
SPEAKER_06So I'm gonna remove them so that you cannot have the chance to be wrong. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I'm just looking out for you, you dumb fuck.
SPEAKER_03100%.
AntheaSo charitably, what tells what this whole thing tells me is that Bayesian reasoning is pretty inadequate for many real-world social applications.
JakeYeah, like it's great for computers, bad for humans.
AntheaYeah, because like us like a single statement like it's uncool to say that does not convey common knowledge between two Bayesian actors. Like there is a web of of preconceptions of existing priors and biases within each actor that make that datum into just a kaleidoscope of individual understandings of it rather than a single shared common piece of knowledge.
JakeYeah, and like I feel just like two humans will have such a colossal volume of analog experiences over the course of a lifetime that trying to get two people to the point where their knowledge is common in a meaningful way to objectively evaluate something is impossible.
SPEAKER_06Pretty close to. I think the only thing that we can agree on as common knowledge is that Yadkowski's a little bitch.
SPEAKER_02Well, okay, and also like, okay, again, I'm gonna try and be fun after this, and you can take this out if you want to.
AntheaLike, I'm not gonna make you stand by this, but like the the uh opinions expressed by our co-hosts are not necessarily the opinions of the podcast.
SPEAKER_02The opinions of the podcast proper.
JakeYeah, I'll try to drop some killer jokes, so we have to keep it in.
SPEAKER_02Damn! Okay, great. Um, okay, Jake, you'd be really funny because I'm about to be so bad.
JakeI realize I just immediately started writing checks I'm not gonna catch.
SPEAKER_02No, that's okay, that's okay. I just think I think back to the word insecurities, reader insecurities when he's talking about rape. Mm-hmm. Like Yad yad. My sweet friend. Have you ever been afraid that someone was going to rape you? Have you ever sat with a friend who was talking about how somebody raped her or him or them and nobody believed them? Have you looked up statistics in this enlightenment-descended country about how many people get raped? It is not insecurity to have been harmed by something.
JakeYeah, and if someone's ever like, yeah, I feel pretty secure about rape, like, I don't know, I don't know how I feel about that person.
AntheaI don't want to fucking know you, weirdo. Like, yeah. Now I am gonna the the only pushback I'm gonna give to that is that I don't want to attribute the term insecurities to Yadkowski.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Somebody, somebody else said it's all reader insecurities or something. Okay. Okay. He didn't go out of his way to like smack that down though. I mean, I mean not that I saw this isn't this isn't a conversation on a Reddit post. Okay, alright. So I won't necessarily attribute that straight directly to Yedya, my dear sweet friend.
AntheaBut I think that's a fair question. Like, given the way the larger rationalist and effective altruist communities reacted to I we talked about this before, I think, reacted to allegations of harassment and assault and misconduct within the communities, uh, with a a very like, mm-mm I don't know, and Yadkowski was like, you can't trust journalists and that kind of stuff. Like, I I think that rather than direct that beautiful cold rage towards Yadkowski, I would direct it towards the community at large.
SPEAKER_02I think I think that that's a f I think that that's totally a fair redirect. And I think like, you know, I the broader point that I think I would that I I wanna make in in actual earnestness rather than just being like is like that's not what we mean when we say eat the mic. Um exactly. Um uh when when we're when you let's start from a set of historical facts and priors. Okay, there's a prevalence of racism and violence against predominantly women, but also all kinds of people, and it's sexual violence, right? And it's uh part of a patriarchal system. Um with that in mind, sometimes because of the experiences that people have had that they've lived through, many of which are st are are reflected on a population level. So there is statistical significance. It's not just like, oh, I could never have expected that this person would have this crazy experience. Like, no, like we know that statistically these things happen. When you're talking about when you're talk when you're just making a blanket statement about a society um that has been historically marginalized in the countries descended from the enlightenment.
JakeUm catchy acronym for that.
SPEAKER_02Oh descent, okay. Descended from the enlightenment. DFE. So, like, I mean, I feel like there's like a DTF thing that wants to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Listen, my arm isn't long enough for the jerk-off motion required.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, I know, right? But like, okay, so like when you are talking about those things, with that having been the set of historical facts that we can see replicated at a population level, it makes sense that when you're communicating, if you want to communicate, you want to teach someone, you want to connect with someone, you want to persuade someone, you need to be careful and respectful about how you communicate certain ideas. And if you are not, then people will dismiss you. And that's just part of communication, and that's part of persuasive writing. So, I don't know, Yakowski acting like this is just everybody else's problem fucking sucks. Yeah.
JakeI was spacing out during most of that. I've come to we could go with cunt den for countries descended.
SPEAKER_02I'm not opposed to cunt den.
SPEAKER_06Cunt Denny and the E enlightenment kind of.
JakeYeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, cut Denny. Cunt Denny. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Cunt Denny.
JakeSorry, Denny, listener's name, Denny.
SPEAKER_02Oh, here's a question I had also. So comet T is like supposed to be like comedy. Yeah. I thought it was comedy like C-O-M-I-T-Y. Oh, wow. Sorry, I just like I'm only hearing it. Yeah. No, that's fair. That's just not a word that's in most people's vocabulary. Yeah, I barely know what it means. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, isn't it is I thought. Isn't that a poly thing? No. I thought it was like compersion. I am thinking of conversion. Oh, I think comedy is more like composure or equanimity, but I couldn't. There it is. No, you're yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was thinking of compersion. Anyway, so yes, so now I've said a bunch of mean things and I've been extremely angry, but at least at the end we kind of gave it a little a little zazz. Yeah.
JakeAnd we're most of the way through old business now.
AntheaYeah! That's that's all I have for old business. Let's get into the story so far. Do I need to preemptively lay down? It can't hurt. Okay. The story so far. I was thinking about asking you guys to tell real real quick. What do you think the story so far is?
JakeOh, I I I condensed it to a six-word story earlier. Yes. It was um hot aunt, um, smart uncle, uh, rapist friend.
SPEAKER_02Ding, ding, ding. That's really good. Um, I would say this has been a series of conversations people have statically about how like there's all kinds of crazy stuff going on, but we really don't see most of it happen. Um, we're in this world full of magic and whimsy, and we mostly just see people having conversations together where nothing much happens about how smart and uh and otherwise outstanding and special Harry Potter Evans Varys is. You know, good writing. Yeah, yes, yeah.
JakeIt's like it's like we are in a rationalist salon.
SPEAKER_02Look, these are just the classic tenets that any master craftsman will tell you for writing. It's like tell, tell, tell, tell, tell. Yes.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, tell, don't show, obviously.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Literally not show.
AntheaOh, this other thing happened. I just think that's I mean, like, I I have no reason to disagree with you. I just think it's funny because of some of the stuff we were talking about before it in earlier episodes about like my theory is that he has misunderstood show, don't tell. Oh, yeah. I think all of these things can be true at the same time, though. Like, I don't think they're I don't think any of them are uh uh mutually exclusive.
SPEAKER_02I just think like, look, I mean, like, I'm working on a memoir right now, and one of the things that I'm trying to balance in the structure is like sometimes there was there were a lot of times where I was just sitting in a Christian nationalist church and just people are yelling at me, right? I'm sitting in the audience and people are screaming things from the stage. Yeah. Um, and sometimes that can be very dramatic, but most of the time it was just people yelling for no reason. Right. And so I'm trying to figure out like, okay, when are the beats of, you know, I have to think about when are the beats of action? Where is something that I can like that even if it wasn't necessarily action that I can make feel dynamic and like there's movement. When your soul left your body. And and I think like just if you don't keep track of that kind of stuff, it's really easy to just have like, I mean, this is very much like if Yadkowski had been writing in like the 8th century BCE, it would have been like dialogues.
AntheaSo interesting that you mention like uh like archaic forms of fiction. Uh I hate that this happens every time. Every time. Just put a little pain in that.
SPEAKER_06I'm scared.
AntheaYou shouldn't, like, this is honestly, like, it's not gonna make you yell. This one is not gonna make you yell. But I think it's an interesting little bit of foreshadowing. Just remember.
JakeI believe in you, Alisa. You can yell about this later.
AntheaThank you, Jake. That means a lot. Um, a couple of plot points that I wanna, you know, I think we've we've pretty much covered it. Uh what's what's happened to you?
JakeI didn't leave anything wandering. No.
AntheaNo, Jake's summary was quite good. Yeah, just a just a couple of plot points that are like leading into this chapter. Um Leslie is horizontal. Leslie is also wearing a shirt that says canon compliant derogatory. Alright. Which I also have that shirt. Shout out to my friend Jace for giving me that shirt. Um, plot points that are leading into this. Uh uh when Harry was introduced to the wizarding world, um, he has several uh over over the course of like learning more about the wizarding world, he has several times, silently and not, made vows to exert his power over this new world by claiming it in the name of science, optimizing it, and tearing its pseudo feudal power structure apart. You know, normal stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um I saw pseudo feudal power structure open for Sister Wife Sex Strike. They were great.
AntheaThey were great. He learned that there is a prophecy about him and Lord Voldemort. He doesn't know the details. On parting with McGonagall in Diagon Alley, she told him to find a first-year girl named Hermione Granger on the Hogwarts Express. And as we know, before finding Hermione in the last chapter, Harry met Ron, wrote him off as pointless, and reconnected with Draco, whom he intends to seduce to the ways of science. I do think, for my, for our purposes, it is worthwhile to keep in mind that he had that conversation with Draco, and then like he goes off and it like is gonna have the rest of these conversations. Like that, just I I invite you to think about how the rest of your day might go if you had a conversation with someone and they like said some really heinous, violent shit to you, like casually. I mean, historically, this will be right. I'm like, I don't think any I'm pretty sure no one in this room needs to imagine that. I think we've all had that. We have had that happen.
SPEAKER_02And that's why I can say with confidence that what happens is uh shocking no one who listens to this podcast, even if you have no association with us, like as people you've never met us before, and you just listened to the podcast, um, you won't be surprised to know that what happens is I immediately tell the next person that I interact with, like, hey, are you cool to hear some wild shit? Because something that's crazy just happened to me.
AntheaI gotta process it.
JakeYeah, I mean Harry's gonna be like, you wanna hear some wild shit? I'm gonna make infinite money and rule the world.
AntheaWell, that's pretty close, actually.
JakeHave you ever Also don't worry about Draco, he's five. No warnings. Vis-a-vis, this megalomane.
SPEAKER_02I mean, Draco's wrong. He's a very normal kid asterisk. And also, have you heard of arbitrage? So, no, that's what I thought.
AntheaChapter 8. Positive bias. I'm gonna skip the author's notes. Leslie is already suspect. Um the epigraph for this one is allow me to warn you that challenging my ingenuity is a dangerous sort of project and may tend to make your life a lot more surreal.
JakeThis is a threat. Sounds like something a little bit should say.
SPEAKER_02It really does.
JakeEspecially because you're here to challenge me.
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm looking over Anthea's shoulder. Allow me to warn you that challenging my ingenuity is a dangerous sort of Oh, project. Project, yes. Not prospect. And May May tend. Just I mean, here's the deal. I use that phrasing a lot on this podcast, so. May 10? Yeah. Oh, okay.
JakeWell, I at least I'm mentally turning the knob down 30% on a dump kid shows about today.
AntheaNo, I'm just saying. In my case, it's partly to avoid defamation accusations.
SPEAKER_02Okay, but here's the thing that I would say is like, there's there are She's not 10. Well, um, no, I think that broadly speaking, it's like there's lots of ways that people talk, and when you're hearing them in real time, it's not disruptive. But when it's presented as dialogue, if you have a lot of helping verbs, it can be really distracting. Um, and so that's why like that sentence is not that long, but it kind of feels like a gish gallop.
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Alright, that's all I have.
AntheaInto the text. No one had asked. Let me try that again. Fuck it, we'll do it live. Yeah, we are. Oh, what? What? We're recording. What?
JakeIt's not live though.
AntheaActually. If we were really brave, we'd stream right to Twitch. Yeah. I'll do it. I mean. Um, no, the stated position of this podcast host is no video. No pivots of video. No.
SPEAKER_02Rods, no masters, no video.
AntheaYeah, this stuff I might cut. No one had asked for help. That was the problem. They'd just gone around talking, eating, or staring into the air while their parents exchanged gossip. For whatever odd reason, no one had been sitting down reading a book, which meant she couldn't just sit down next to them and take out her own book. And even when she'd boldly taken the initiative by sitting down and continuing her third read through of Hogwarts History, no one had seemed inclined to sit down next to her. Aside from helping people with their homework or anything else they needed, she really didn't know how to meet people. She didn't feel like she was a shy person. She thought of herself as a take charge sort of girl. And yet, somehow, if there wasn't some request along the lines of, I can't remember how to do long division, then it was just too awkward to go up to someone and say, What? She'd never been able to figure out what. And there didn't seem to be a standard information sheet, which was ridiculous.
SPEAKER_06Fame girl fame.
AntheaThe whole business of meeting people had never seemed sensible to her. Why did she have to take all the responsibility herself when there were two people involved? Why didn't adults ever help? She wished some other girl would just walk up to her and say, Hermione, the teacher told me to be friends with you. But let it be quite clear that Hermione Granger, sitting alone on the first day of school in one of the few compartments that had been empty in the last carriage of the train, with the compartment door left open just in case anyone for any reason wanted to talk to her, was not sad, lonely, gloomy, depressed, despairing, or obsessing about her problems. She was rather rereading Hogwarts a history for the third time and quite enjoying it, with only a faint tinge of annoyance in the back of her mind at the general unreasonableness of the world.
JakeI am terrified that Edub is writing from a woman's perspective. No good will come of this.
SPEAKER_02Like correct. Like also the same girl. Well, exactly. I would say, like, I don't hate this. I don't hate this.
JakeYeah, no, it's some of the better writing, but I'm still shaken to my core. I still dread tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep, nope. I'm with um, yeah. Everything that everyone said, I am in in alignment with.
AntheaYeah, yeah. I think it's it's it's really interesting because like she clearly isn't as directly a self-insert as Harry is. Um And I think that makes her a better fucking character.
SPEAKER_02I mean, from what we have seen. Right, yeah, yeah.
JakeDid we just stop the podcast here on a high note?
AntheaLet's actually remind you it's okay. So let's just let all the rest of the things. Also, in terms of like going back, in terms of like where should you introduce people to this fic, I think a good reason to introduce me to chapter eight is that this is some of the better writing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I'm listening to this, I'm like, yeah, girl, I remember being in high school and not knowing how to like talk to other people, but like sitting tragically on the backpacks that were lying near the lockers because we had an outdoor campus. Um, and just being like, someone will see how sad I am and want to make me feel better.
AntheaMm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Didn't happen.
AntheaI do think the I think the thing about like, I wish an adult would intervene is a little strange, but I it's not outside the realm of psychological realism to me.
JakeLike, especially if you're a kid who has not had other child friends, then like I I could see that being realistic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and if like your parents were not invested in setting up play dates or whatever, then like you wouldn't have maybe had that experience. Like, in my experience, adults frequently intervene to try and make children be friends. Right.
AntheaBut and I think that's part of why I'm like, that's a little weird because I feel like usually when adults try and make it happen, it's less good.
SPEAKER_02It stood out to me, it stood out to me as something that was a little discordant, but the rest of it, like, frankly, for a certain neuro spicy that I am. Oh, the same. Yeah. Yeah, no notes.
AntheaYeah. Um, now Hermione, I think, is is about to be positioned as a foil for Harry in a not dissimilar way to Draco. Um no, she's pro-rape.
JakeI was gonna say I hope it's dissimilar in some ways.
AntheaJesus. What am I supposed to think? I well, no, I get you. Is she in the eugenics? No, I was Jesus, people. I was gonna make a point about Shakespeare, but now I've been derailed.
SPEAKER_03This is why we can't have knife things. Foils come in with your preconceptions and your insecurities.
JakeAll right, Anthea, what did the barber think about eugenics?
AntheaI'd probably not in favor. I don't know. Like, it was certainly anti-Semitic. So, like, uh yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Listen, okay, so foils in literary analysis are characters whose presence in the story highlights particular characteristics of the protagonist, usually by dissimilarity or contrast. Uh the term the the the there's an old practice of putting reflective foil behind a gem to make it appear brighter. So a foil is something that makes the other thing look brighter.
JakeI always assume it was a fencing thing.
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I did too. Yeah. Okay, but I think it works on multiple levels. Yeah, yeah. Uh Shakespeare loves foils. He does. All over his place. I get why you were going to bring up Shakespeare. Yeah, thank you.
JakeYeah, a foil is worth like 20% more than a normal card, so I it makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Yes, especially if it's like a Charizard.
AntheaYeah. Uh in Hamlet, it's traditionally thought that Laertes is Hamlet's foil. Both of them are young men whose fathers are murdered, and the way that Laertes deals with this by immediately whipping up a mob and threatening to overthrow Claudius is in direct contrast to Hamlet's method of trying to prove the murder via clever tricks and delaying his attempts on Claudius' life. And they also fight each other with swords.
JakeI don't know why I was pointed at by both people. I guess I'm into the fencing thing, right? I did. I didn't forget about that. I was like, okay, I guess I'm better.
AntheaLaertes' hotheaded immediacy is not necessarily better than Hamlet's cooler long game because it leaves him susceptible to Claudius' manipulations, and in that sense, it highlights Hamlet's strengths, but Hamlet's strengths, his intelligence and caution, are also his flaws because they keep him from avenging his father until his own life has also been forfeited. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. In some sense, they are both young men trying to do the right thing, and a corrupt authority figure kind of screws them both over. Ding ding ding.
AntheaI I am also ride or die for the idea that Ophelia is a f foil for Hamlet. Which I don't think Shakespeare intended. No, probably not. I think, but I think she can be read that way because she has loyalty to her father, so to see. She has genuine madness, he has an anti disposition. Yeah. She kills herself. He hems and haws about killing himself.
unknownYeah.
AntheaLike, I I think every time I see a production of Hamlet that does not pick up this parallel and run with it, I get more passionate about how there should be a production of Hamlet that does this.
SPEAKER_02I've never really thought about it that way before, honestly. I mean, honestly, or maybe we've talked about it, but I can't, yeah, but like now I'm like, I need a version where they dress up in each other's clothes or something. Yes. Yes.
AntheaYes, something. Something. Uh anyway, I'm not getting the spoil idea from anything I've read from Yadkowski. This is just me having a degree in theater.
JakeWell, I'm curious to see in what way um Hermione will choose to ruin Luna Lovegood's life.
AntheaRight, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I I I think that there is a useful framework to like if if Dra you know Draco is also a smart, socially manipulative little bitch. Um and is a foil to Harry in those senses. Uh I think it's it's interesting to look at like how does how does what what parts of Hermione are highlighting what parts of Harry? Yeah, okay. So that's that's something I throw out there.
SPEAKER_02I'll try to I'll try to listen out. Just something something to think about.
AntheaUm Hermione hears someone in the corridor asking about her. Uh she flags down the boy who is asking, who is wearing a scarf wrapped around his head, to ask if she can help him. To the text. The scarfed face turned to look at her. And the voice said, Not unless you can name the six quarks, or tell me where to find Hermione Granger.
JakeOh no, the writing got bad again.
AntheaYeah, it was pretty quick. Yeah, that's uh sorry. Up, down, strange, charm, truth, beauty, and why are you looking for her? Uh quarks. Here's a fun thing, not in the text. Quarks are categorized as flavors. So there are six flavors of quarks. What's a quark? What is a quark? It is a uh a subatomic particle. That too. Um okay, that makes sense to me. It's a subatomic particle. Uh I think that I think they're what makes up like electrons and protons.
JakeLike I think protons and neutrons.
AntheaOh, I think you're right. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's interesting. I didn't know it got smaller than protons and neutrons.
JakeYeah, I get smaller than quarks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. If you're a rationalist listening to this, you are welcome for the opportunity to disregard anything I have to say on any topic.
JakeYeah. If we're wrong about things, please comment. It is engagement.
AntheaYes. Um, I do want to note, because of the audience that I'm talking to, um, truth and so up, down, strange, charm, truth, beauty. Uh Beauty Quarks? Up, down, strange, and charm are all standard. Like that's those are the standard names for it. Um, Truth and Beauty are not the standard names for those flavors of quarks uh anymore. Um when they were first predicted in 1973, many physicists did use Truth Beauty, and so the T and B initials became pretty widely used.
JakeYeah, because they're top and bottom, right? That's yes.
SPEAKER_02The standard these days is top and bottom. Can I ask you a quick question? Please. Was Yadkowski frozen in 1973, and then he like woke up in 2011 and was like, I have to write a Harry Potter fanfic.
JakeAnd he did talk like those old men from the eugenics documentary we watched.
SPEAKER_06He did! He did. I'm not sure how I feel about the implication of the opposite of truth is beauty.
AntheaThat's a oh, that's an interesting point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The rest of them, well, Keats wrote The Beauty is truth and truth beauty. I think that's probably where people are getting it, is the Keats poems.
JakeAnd also quirks quirks come in like triads. So it's like they're kind of, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can you imagine trying to explain subatomic particles to Keats and being like, and then we name them after your poem, and he's like, Whoa, that's not what I intended.
AntheaUm, I person I actually am with you. I think truth beauty is really fun. Um, I like I think if you already are doing like up down strange charm, like why not just stay in the weird naming schema instead of I think top and bottom are fun for reasons I won't elaborate, but I feel like should be obvious. Thank you. Yeah, they're kinky. Thank you.
JakeBut I feel like strange should be switched then if we're going with top and bottom. You can even keep the letters.
AntheaYeah, right. There you go. There you go. Um onward to the text. Oh that that was our that was our uh uh quantum physics.
JakeYeah, I'm actually having to talk about quantum physics for a long time.
AntheaOh, good. I'm glad someone is, because I was I was I have to admit, I thought about trying to do I thought about defining what a quark was, and then I was like, no one's gonna ask me.
JakeI was I was about to name them, but then Hermione did, and it's like, oh no, I'm worried that I did what Edub just did in the text.
AntheaI didn't know what quark was.
SPEAKER_02Huh? I did ask you where.
AntheaI know, I thought you weren't going to, so I didn't prepare for it. I can still surprise you after all these years. Yes. Back to the text. It was hard to tell from this distance, but she thought she saw the boy grin widely under his scarf. Ah, so you're a first-year girl named Hermione Granger, said that young, muffled voice. On the train to Hogwarts, no less. The boy started to walk towards her and her compartment, and his trunk slithered along after him. Technically all I needed to do was look for you, but it seems likely that I meant to talk to you or invite you to join my party or get a key magical item from you, or find out that Hogwarts was built over the ruins of an ancient temple or something. PC or NPC? That is the question. Oh, fuck off.
JakeYeah, the trial has become tedious again.
SPEAKER_02So Ooh, he's super tedious. This is another of those moments. He's your NPC saying that to a person.
JakeYes. No, you Edub's kind of ahead of the curve on this, honestly.
SPEAKER_03Yes, he is. Yeah, 100% is. Yeah. Which fucking sucks.
JakeYeah, no, bad curve to be moving.
AntheaThe curve is cursed. Curve, curve headed that's dead man's curve, maybe.
SPEAKER_02This is a no, this is a zero charm curve.
AntheaYes. Um, you're you're absolutely like, yes, I'm you guys picked up on where I was going with this. It's so revealing, and it is so easily passed over if you don't know what you're if you if you don't have the context that we have. Um and you're absolutely right. This usage of NPC predates the existence of the alt-right, let alone the alt-right using the term NPC. It predates Gamergate. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um the inverse traces the use of NPC as like an alt-right thing uh to a 2016 4chan post. Um and while so they the the alt-right version of NPC is like, oh, like people who just they're usually talking about it in political terms. Not always, but it's because sometimes sometimes they're talking about like, oh, you talk to a person and all they have to say is uh oh, how about that sports team, or what's the weather like? And they just don't have anything going on. They just have the same pre-programmed responses that everybody has, like an NPC in a video game.
SPEAKER_02Maybe they know that you're fucking toxic. Yeah, maybe they don't want to talk to you.
JakeTry to add the conversation as quickly and politely as possible.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. They're trying to have like a safe conversation because they're like, I shouldn't tell personal information to this person.
JakeYeah, this guy's giving me Malfoy vibes, if you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, this guy didn't descend directly from the Enlightenment, if you know what I mean.
AntheaUm, but it has acquired a very politically charged uh uh meaning of like it's often used in terms of like it's often used to to deride people for uh specifically people on the left for like, oh, they don't have any thoughts of their own. They're just repeating these, you know, these slogans about Black Lives Matter or whatever. What an NPC thing to say.
SPEAKER_06Are these alt-right guys capable of coming up with their own derision? Not really. Why they gotta be taking stuff that's not theirs to take.
SPEAKER_04What, NPC? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06No, we're still using it.
SPEAKER_02You know, that's for player characters. It's right. It's so weird because those sentiments don't at all sound like anything that Yakkowski would say about people.
AntheaWell, here's the thing. So, yeah, Harry conceives of himself as a player character with agency, and Hermione is going to have to prove whether she is an unagentic, quest-giving NPC or a fellow player to be recruited. This is solipsism. I mean, 100%. Well, and the thing is, there's There's a an acknowledged tendency among rationalists, especially people who are new to rationalism, to fall into this mindset. Acknowledged. Acknowledged within the communities.
SPEAKER_06What that no one else has a rich internal landscape. Yeah. Just them, no one else.
JakeYep, I thought they acknowledged that they shouldn't be doing this.
AntheaUh yes. I mean, uh, so oh yeah, yeah. Please, please explain a little bit more. First couple, yeah. The first couple examples I'm gonna give you, to be very clear, not Yudkowski.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
AntheaOther rationalists. Yodkowski, I am waiting to bite you with my shark teeth. Yeah, don't worry, he'll come up. Okay. In a 2018 comment, user uh Alkjash uh talks about their own experience of the rationalist uncanny valley that many baby rats go through when they start getting into the methodology.
SPEAKER_04Rat rats.
AntheaQuote: Rationalists beginning to see non-rationalists as normies, NPCs, or otherwise subhuman. It's not uncommon to see conversations and word choice on less wrong, like using aliveness or more human as largely synonymous to being better at rationality, saying in perfect seriousness, it's impossible to talk to normies because they have no concept of objective truth, or putting oneself in the tiny set of unlikely heroes who are actually trying. Oh my god. In a 2020 post uh called My Experience with the Rationalist Uncanny Valley, user Thomas Qua mentions having this experience. So again, this is something that people are like when you get into the methodology, this is a pitfall that you may fall into.
JakeI mean, I took a philosophy 101 course once, I get it. Right. But then, you know, then I turned 19. Right.
AntheaSo yeah, yeah. Uh next example. In a 2026 post called In My Misanthropy Era, which was picked by less wrong moderators as a curated post, uh, meaning they liked it, user Jen describes attempting to prove both Schopenhauer and her inner edgelord wrong about the common man by trying to interact with non-rationalists at a local philosophy meetup. There, among grad students, retirees, Twitter reply guys, and other philosophically curious folks, quote, I was forced to come to terms with the gigantic inferential chasm between the rationalist community's intellectual norms and the way that the not even that common man did things. End quote. She calls the discourse rancid and describes a lack of intellectual. Rigor that left her dismayed. Now, to her credit, she d knew this was a her problem. Quote, By the way, if at this point you're like, wow, Jen's sort of being an elitist bitch here, well, yeah. This was sort of the entire problem that I was here bunglingly trying to solve. But instead of getting fixed over the course of two hours that night, I got worse. I completely stopped seeing the other participants as people with anything potentially useful to teach me, and instead started seeing them as NPCs to manipulate for fun.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god.
AntheaEnd quote. Yeah, the first time I read this essay, it it knocked me for a like it really threw me off. Like you've Did she get better? No.
JakeI'm glad you said the name again, because as you're going to have this word, like, was this somebody I dated once?
SPEAKER_03Because it sounds a lot like Oh no. Oh Jake, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like, okay, something so something I didn't tell you is uh so I I went to uh mass this morning and I was talking to one of the like uh uh they have a they have a um a ministry of social justice or a social justice ministry or whatever. And so one of the things that they're doing um is they're trying to get a group together to like go and like help serve meals at this men's shelter. Um and one thing that this lovely retiree uh told me at the post-mass coffee and donuts was she was just like, I think, you know, you're just you're so struck by the resilience of these people. And like she has an open heart, you know, where she's not looking, she's not rent-seeking about other people because she believes or believes in the belief that that they have value that's just by themselves and doesn't have to do with rent-seeking behavior, and doesn't have to do with what they can teach her or what they can teach her about quarks, or like that they have to jump over some hurdle. She looked at these people who are in a terrible situation, who are you know, who are who are unhoused um and and thought like wow, it's so hard to live the life that you're living, and the fact that you're doing it is like such a testament to your strength. Like, I don't know. This is just so sad.
AntheaIt's it's really yeah, I like that post in particular made me very, very sad. And I've I've mentioned it to you before, Lisa, I know.
SPEAKER_02Like she Yeah, but I didn't hear those quotes about like about like I was thinking of them as people just to manipulate for fun. Like I was forced because I was hoping for them to teach me something. Like, she's this poor this poor girl in a way, yeah, right? Like she goes in and she's like but like she she has a good urge, which is I know I shouldn't think this way about people. Yeah, but she still has to means test them. Right. And like they have to pass some fucking bar of like they have to be able to talk eloquently about Schopenhauer in some way that satisfies me or whatever.
AntheaFor her, it's very like they need to have a level of intellectual rigor, right?
SPEAKER_02They need to have a level of intellectual rigor that they are able to demonstrate to me on the spot verbally, um uh that that I am able to hear on the spot auditorially or whatever. Right. And like otherwise, you know, if they don't do that, then I'm forced to say, fuck them, but they're not people.
JakeYeah, like if she had talked to herself two years ago before she got into this community, then she wouldn't have been a person. Right.
AntheaRight, right. Um she and it's part of what's sad about the post is like she she does briefly talk herself into acknowledging things like like intelligence intelligence isn't all there is to the human race. No, like that's such a good thing to think. And then she talks herself back out of that conclusion.
SPEAKER_02And also intelligence, as we talked about last time we talked about eugenics, yeah, is like uh well, if somebody is able to survive unhoused on the streets of a major city in America, right? Like, isn't is that a kind of intelligence? Right. Or like I think um, you know, I I recently have re-listened to and re-listened to Sean's um Sean on YouTube, the Bell Curve video. Oh, I should put that in the show notes. That's a good one. Yeah, it's really good. Um, it's part of my playlist, Eugenics the Musical.
SPEAKER_06I have questions, but will not ask them.
AntheaI mean you could ask.
SPEAKER_03I just might not have answers.
AntheaFeaturing the torch song You Can't Spell Eugenics without you and I.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah! Oh yeah! Um but um so I try I tried to organize the playlist in like order of like the things leading up to the eugenics movement, the eugenics movement, and then the publication of the bell curve, which is later on. Yeah. Um and then I think like after that I had Tomorrow's Children, which um which uh knowledge fight fans will recall from the endgame videos. But I recommend watching it yourself. It's really interesting. You'll probably find things that Dan and Jordan didn't talk about. Um so uh you know, he talks about the idea of like if someone is a really good basketball player, is that is there is that intelligence or is it just athleticism? If someone is a really great musician, is that intelligence or is it creativity? Are those things different and how do we know? So even if even if you even if you were to say the only thing that matters in the human race is intelligence, like how do we know what is and is not intelligence?
SPEAKER_06Something, something fish in a bicycle. Like, listen. Sure, right, we're right.
JakeYeah, I mean, and people and like the rationalist community in particular will typically define intelligence in ways that favor their method of intelligence.
SPEAKER_02Right. It sounds as if they will, yeah. And I just think like it's worth pointing out that like doesn't sound very rational to me. Right.
JakeWell, that's kind of the thesis. You could that could be the other tagline for the show. It doesn't sound that rational to me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh. No, but I think it's worth pointing out, and like continuing to iterate to iterate, that like that's not settled. You can assert it, and that doesn't mean that people who like that academics who study these fields and who actually have degrees in them, unlike Yadkowski, would say, Oh, this is a hundred percent true, or like, oh, we're as certain as we can be that this is the case.
SPEAKER_06Emotional intelligence is a test I've taken. Right.
SPEAKER_02I haven't. That's fine.
SPEAKER_06EQIQ thing? Okay, send us a link. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. It's it's usually in the battery of uh self-um prescribed autism testing.
SPEAKER_02Oh, all right. All right, all right. Hey, it's time, it's time for me to brush up brush up your autism. Brush up on my autism.
SPEAKER_06The theory being that um a lower EQ score is more indicative of um. Oh, that's nonsense.
SPEAKER_02It's so funny because the other, because this morning, um one of my church ladies was like, she's like, and you know, it's hard to do this work, right? Like I went back from serving these meals thinking, oh gosh, can I do this? And if you have a high, you know, if you're an empath, which I suspect you are, and I was like, oh lady, no, certainly not. I almost was like, no, I'm a velociraptor. Right? With her little arms.
SPEAKER_06Well, okay. So clever girl. So the e the EQ thing, yeah, if it's an intelligence that is um measured by your neurotypicals, yeah. Right, in the same way that it's like, oh, I'm empathizing with you, so I'm going to share a story because I'm showing that I see how you're feeling, and I have something to say I can relate. And neurotypicals be like, why are you making it all about you?
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_06Like, I'm not, I'm showing you that I'm that I'm like connecting with you. Right.
SPEAKER_02You're just Oh, that's so funny because my immediate thought was I was like, yeah, you're showing a proof point that connects these two things together. Right. No, exactly. Look, I knew that I wasn't neuromase.
SPEAKER_06But but your neurotypicals find that to be not um high emotionally intelligent. And I'm like, um, maybe your testing is just wrong. And also, um, how else am I supposed to tell you, like, with sincerity?
SPEAKER_02Right, because anybody can say, ooh, that sounds really hard. Right, right.
SPEAKER_06No, exactly. Anyone can say, like, my condolences, but I'm like, bro, that sucks. That sucks.
SPEAKER_03And I know because of X, Y, Z thing.
SPEAKER_06And normally that's what people are like, oh, thank you for like saying that sucks. I'm like, because everyone else is out there, you know, pretending like they're being sympathetic.
SPEAKER_02They're not like they're not pretending they are like genuinely being sympathetic. It's hard, right?
AntheaBecause in these moments, it's well, this also speaks to like like if you are not if you're neurodivergent, maybe the way that you understand someone is being sympathetic is they tell you a story about how they under they've been through the same thing. And when they just say, Oh, I'm so sorry, in like a in a voice, that doesn't mean anything to me. Right? Because I don't know what the voice is.
JakeYeah, I and I feel like one of the like, not maybe not universally, but commonly agreed on things as a sign of intelligence is extrapolating something from something else. So it'd be like, oh, this story, like this story. Yes, like that is an intelligent thing to do. It's like this thing is similar to this thing for these reasons.
SPEAKER_06100%.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. And fundamentally, whenever someone is going through something that's hard, like there's there's nothing you can say. It doesn't matter. Like you could say it in the kindest, most empath voice ever, and you could really mean it and really be feeling it. Or you could have the best, most similar data point ever. And it's like, but this person is going through this thing right now and they're in it. And and to an extent, it's like just like you know, people say that you're alone in death. It's like, well, to an extent, in a certain way, you are alone with all of your experiences. You're also not, right? But when, but like, that's why I mean I personally have like I always feel fucking bad, like as a writer, when people are like going through something terrible, and I'm just like, um, my thoughts are with your family. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, I should have something better to say. I should have something better to say, but I know that no matter what I said, even if it was beautiful and wonderful, it like wouldn't touch you where you are. Yeah.
JakeI mean, maybe you could just find a uh choice choice quote from the sequences to like probably there's gotta be something in there.
SPEAKER_02There's like a million words. Say, I'm sorry your dad died. Accept this truth like a leaf on the wind. I might punch you.
AntheaI deserve it. So Harry comes in and he's like, PC or NPC? That is the question.
JakeOh and we're stuck in a loop, we're outraged by this again afresh.
AntheaHermione. Hermione immediately starts to get the vibe that Harry is a befuddling person. Um he introduces himself and she realizes that she has read about him, which does briefly throw Harry off balance. Yes! Um Get him, Hermione!
SPEAKER_06Because she can read.
AntheaYeah, right, yeah. He's like, girl read? She rattles off everything she knows about him from her reading, leaving him slackjawed, much to my delight. Yes! Now see how the other half lives, you fuck. He asks if she has an identic memory. Like an 11-year-old. Okay, Leslie, I am curious about if you have any idea where this came from. He asks if she has an idetic memory, and she says, no, she has just memorized her textbooks. Is this a thing? Is like Hermione having a photograph, like, or like No. Okay.
JakeSaid with such a voice of authority.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Hermione great.
SPEAKER_06She's just supposed to be a fucking nerd. Like that's that's how she's just how she's played as just a fucking nerd.
AntheaAnd that is what she says in this is that she's like, I had to read my books like three times to memorize them.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well, like that's a lot. But yeah, no, she's just like knows stuff. She's just smart. Yeah, like that's how she does.
SPEAKER_02Not that from Canon, I remember it sounds as if she has a really great memory, and she is voraciously curious. Yeah, I remember one thing that I always remember, um, which I thought was great, honestly, and I know that it was supposed to be like making fun of her, but I always thought it was really interesting. It's like when she's taking a muggle studies class, and Ron is like, I think it's Ron, is saying, like, Hermione, your muggle board. And she says, Yeah, but I want to learn it from a wizarding perspective. Which is Which is so smart. Really smart, especially if you want a job in the wizarding world after you graduate.
SPEAKER_06Or if you want to like fix their shit. You gotta see what they're saying before you can tell them how they're wrong.
SPEAKER_02It's like, right. I it's like really great. Um, so, so yeah.
AntheaYeah, I it's just it's a weird little thing, like, it's a thing that that that like Okay, so I was curious about whether Yadkowski had invented this thing about Hermione having perfect recall.
SPEAKER_06Is he just trying to make something spectacular out of just like, she's real smart, yo?
JakeIt's gotta be like the only way a girl can be smart is if it's the idetic memory. Like it's not actually being intelligent or synthesizing new information. It's just being able to regurgitate it.
SPEAKER_06It's not that she's trying to learn, it's that she just can't help it. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02That's the thing that kind of got me when I initially had been like, oh my god, she has an idetic memory, is that I was like, wow, Yakowski, that seems like a really convenient way for you to seem super smart while actually not knowing what the fuck you're talking about. And actually just regurgitating whatever fucking Wikipedia thing is like, here's the other thing. It actually takes a specific type of intelligence to teach people stuff. Yakowski himself alluded to that in the previous chapter. Yeah. You have to really understand what you're doing to be able to teach someone else. Yeah. Um but like if you just copy paste whatever's in a textbook, there's no proof that you understand it.
AntheaRight. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is in some ways a a an annoy like sorry, I'm not articulate I've I got distracted. But the to wrote repeat something is knowledge, it's not wisdom. And so there is a there I don't think I I'm trying to find the uh the article that I was actually quoting earlier.
SPEAKER_06Like that's the whole point, like of an open book exam. Is that anybody can regurgitate the thing. Right, exactly. It's can you solve the problem?
SPEAKER_02But I love that Yud Harry is so fucking arrogant that he is just absolutely gobsmacked by the idea that somebody could do what he himself did in a previous chapter. Right, right. Um, and maybe that's intentional question mark on Yadkowski's part.
JakeCan we just stop giving him the benefit of the doubt? We did that. People who listened, we have benefited his doubts. He has used up his benefits for the year. Yeah, we have to do that. We have to wait until next year for the benefits to refresh. We have not been touchable. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_06We have not benefited from the doubts. It's so true.
SPEAKER_03We've really, we've really suffered as a group.
AntheaI can't go into this whole interview that Yudkowski did. Uh why are there spoilers? There's spoilers. But I think that we have actually touched on, we've we've noticed something that I think I can therefore bring up. Which is he says in here, I wrote Hermione explicitly to be a deconstruction of the Mary Sue.
SPEAKER_06What? Okay, that's I'm preemptively making the wank motion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's interesting because she already has more recognizable human emotions than Harry.
JakeYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You you failed again as a writer, Ida. Sorry, you accidentally made a good character.
SPEAKER_02But I will say that on the plus side, Yadkowski seems to have unlocked like a mind-meld wonder twin ability that Jake and I have.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
AntheaTo have the same thoughts about something at the same time. He he also says, I set out to make Hermione check every single box in the Mary Sue trope. But you probably don't even notice that I did it. Fuck you.
SPEAKER_02But you probably don't even notice that I did it. And the fact that I wasn't able to effectively communicate that just shows how bad people are at reading.
AntheaAnd then the the rest of the stuff that is is spoilers, so I cannot I cannot tell you about that. But that is, I I don't know. Normally I wouldn't normally I try not to like give too much like uh uh this is this is the authorial intent because I I don't want to get too much into um I kind of I I generally speaking want to let the the text stand on its own and like see what we get out of it. But I think as we believe in death of the author. Right, but I do think as we get deeper into it, that kind of becomes more difficult, and it becomes interesting to see what Yudkowski thinks he's doing and whether we uh whether we think that he's succeeding at it. It's wild.
SPEAKER_03I love that like we were like, oh, Hermione, a breath of fresh air, and Yudkowski's like, I was trying to make a Mary Sue.
AntheaI he's and I mean he says that he's trying to deconstruct a Mary Sue.
SPEAKER_06I don't know what that means.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I perhaps more importantly, but I know what it means on the television show Chopped, which is I ran out of time if someone else was using the ice cream maker, so Jeff I never do it for you.
SPEAKER_03I deconstructed Apple crumble.
JakeYeah, it didn't say the text, but her mind is actually just a pile of organs, a bunch of skin, and some bones next to each other.
SPEAKER_03It's a rustic presentation. It is a rustic presentation of a girl. Drink! Use rustic drink.
AntheaI do have this very nice whiskey right here. Whiskey.
SPEAKER_06That's our drinking game when we watch those shows, is when they say rustic.
AntheaUm, okay, anyway. Uh she says she's memorized her textbooks. Harry tests her by quizzing her on a potion test. Oh, get racked.
SPEAKER_03I hope that the Hogwarts express crap. And everybody goes to Narnia.
AntheaHermione loves tests. This is said multiple times.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Wait, okay, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, quick, quick, quick. Okay, so here's what I want for Hermione. That she um gets teleported out of the fucking train and then she goes into portal. And GLaDOS tests her. And Hermione is like, yes, GLaDOS is like, what the uh You're not supposed to like it. I I don't like that you like it. It actually doesn't do anything for me when you like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I love that though, enrichment for her enclosure.
AntheaYes. So he tests he quizzes her on a potions recipe, uh she passes the test. Yeah, no shit. Obviously, yeah. Carrie to the to the text. The boy shut the book with a sharp snap and put the book back into his pouch, which swallowed it with a small burping noise. Well, well, well, well, well, well. I should like to make you a proposition, Miss Granger. A proposition? Hermione said suspiciously.
JakeHold on to that doubt, girl.
AntheaGirls weren't supposed to listen to those. Yeah, run! It was also at this point that Hermione realized the other thing, well, one of the things, which was odd about the boy. Apparently, people who were in books actually sounded like a book when they talked. This was quite the surprising discovery.
SPEAKER_02What the I'm sorry, is that Yankowski lampshading his own shitty writing style? Yeah. I do want to say, I'm sorry, old business. I guess uh I think that No, the time's over, yes? I think that it was really nice of you and of Jake and of me.
SPEAKER_03That when you read us that bit about Harry being like, in science, our powers wax by the year, that we didn't say, wow, that's fucking terrible.
JakeYeah, I like how we are just on our vengeance arc this episode of like two nights.
SPEAKER_06We're like 37 words into this, and we're already like T-Rex arming on the floor.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So far, there's nothing wrong with Hermione. I want good things for her, and I want Harry to get, I want the Hogwarts Express to crash, but only the part that has Harry in it.
AntheaThe boy reached into his pouch and said, Can of pop. Retrieving a bright green cylinder.
JakeCorrect, Yusuf.
AntheaHe held it out to her, you fucking Midwesterner. I know.
JakeI'm in the Midwestern, I say Soda.
AntheaYou're an apostate?
JakeYeah.
AntheaYou're in a pop state. Very good. I'm not gonna do better than that podcast over.
SPEAKER_07Please end it.
SPEAKER_03Uh Fanta. Oh, right. I'm sorry. I also wanted to start doing product placements in this episode.
SPEAKER_02I just want to say it right now before you go any further. Um Nair. Do you hate having spiky hairs on your body for reasons that have to do with either beauty standards or autism? Then you should try Nair. You might say, Alisa, but it gives you a chemical burn. That's true, but did you know that it also makes your fingernails soft and bendable? There.
JakeIt works that way on purpose.
SPEAKER_06I think you killed Anthea. I think she's dead now.
JakeDon't worry, I'll just yell Fanta at some point later in the episode.
AntheaHermione politely accepted the fizzy drink. In fact, she was feeling sort of thirsty by now. Thank you very much, Hermione said as she popped the top. Hermione, it's a trick! Don't be accepting Was that your proposition? The boy coughed. No, he said. Just as Hermione started to drink, he said, I'd like you to help me take over the universe. Hermione finished her drink and lowered the can. No, thank you, I'm not evil. Yes! Oh my gosh, you're the only fucking person who makes any sense! The boy looked at her in surprise, as though he'd been expecting some other answer. Well, I was speaking a bit rhetorically, he said. In the sense of the Baconian project, you know, not political power, the affecting of all things possible, and so on.
SPEAKER_04Oh get right.
AntheaI want to conduct experimental studies of spells, figure out the underlying laws, bring magic into the domain of science, merge the wizarding and Mughal worlds, raise the entire planet's standard of living, move humanity centuries ahead, discover the secret of immortality, colonize the solar system, explore the galaxy, and most importantly, figure out what the heck is really going on here, because all of this is blatantly impossible.
JakeMost of all, make sure I'm kind of the one at the reins of this whole thing.
SPEAKER_06Okay, but like the f you had me in the first half, because I did write the fanfag.
SPEAKER_04Wait, which part?
SPEAKER_06Huh? The uh figuring out what magic's all about. Oh, yeah, my Doctor Who Harry Potter crossover. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, um, just uh again, I just want to remind all of the uh podcast listeners that colonization is always optional.
AntheaYeah, it's not compulsory. You don't have to do it. That you don't have to explore things in a colonial way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can just check out what's going on over here. This is I I think um I think our friend uh Alex and I have talked about this before. About like, is it possible to make a what's it's not that it's not the outer wilds, what's the other one?
JakeOuter worlds?
AntheaOuter I think so. Yeah.
JakeUm are you talking about the corporate dystopia or the exploration?
SPEAKER_02Exploration.
JakeThat's outer wilds.
SPEAKER_02That's outer wilds. Okay. And I know that like even Minecraft has this question.
AntheaYeah, like is it possible to make a game that is based on the concept because exploration games are really fun, right? And like going and like mining resources and making and crafting stuff and and create it, like it's really fun. Is there a way to make a game like that that isn't playing into a colonial urge? Well, I think that like a question for me.
SPEAKER_02If you look at like the history of just this country, and even let's zero in on just the Pacific Northwest because that's what I know more about. Um indigenous people in the Pacific Northwest initially didn't have a huge problem. I mean, you know, it's like nobody's a monolith, so there were differing opinions, but a lot of folks in the Coast Salage did not have a problem with people living here or moving here because the concept of property was more about like who can use this land to sustain themselves, and also part of that deal is that you're gonna be sustaining the land in kind, like you're also gonna be taking stewarding the land as well. Yeah, so like I I think it's I I do think it's perfectly possible to have this idea of like I'm gonna live here and do that in like a pluralistic way.
AntheaYeah, or like a symbiotic way. Yeah, I I agree. I think it's possible. I just like I think it's a really interesting, it's a super interesting question.
SPEAKER_02And it's like it's like it's totally possible. The question is like are we gonna set things up such that we actually do it like either in a gaming, you know, capacity or in life?
unknownYeah.
JakeI I like that out of wild solution to this is the universe explodes in 20 minutes, so like it kind of doesn't matter what you colonize, it's all gonna blow up soon. So very good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, that's one way of solving the problem.
AntheaUh so Harry is like, I want to do all these things. That sounded a bit more interesting. And the boy stared at her incredulously. And? That's not enough? And what do you want from me? said Hermione. I want you to help me do the research, of course. With your encyclopedic memory added to my intelligence and rationality, we'll have the Baconian project finished in no time. Punch him. By no time, I mean probably at least 35 years. Oh, get fucked. Punch him. Hermione was beginning to find this boy annoying. Yes!
JakeMight find this child tedious, you could say.
AntheaI haven't seen you do anything intelligent. Maybe I'll maybe I'll let you help me with my research.
SPEAKER_07Yes!
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, and is this supposed to be her being a Mary Sue because she's all girl boss? Because she has basic self-esteem, and because she quite literally hasn't seen him do anything intelligent except wander around like Batman going, has anyone seen the Joker?
JakeTell me where the quarks are.
SPEAKER_07Exactly.
JakeYeah, no, my brain, like, part of it was like in a self-defense mode, being like, okay, we have now switched to the main character's perspective. The first seven chapters where I'm like setting up the antagonist, and now the real story starts with following Remione. Now that's a good part. No, we're gonna switch back to the card. We are gonna switch back to the biggest.
SPEAKER_02And also just like how it's so funny. I mean, this is right back to the whole, like, oh, McGonagall can do sums in her head. And I was talking about like calling people who are technically proficient on Project Runway seamstresses. He's like, Oh, I've already clocked you with your encyclopedic knowledge. All you are is a repository of information. Ding ding ding ding ding.
JakeYeah, this is the skill that will appear in my party menu. Yes, encyclopedic knowledge.
SPEAKER_02Right. Women just exist to be harvested by the by the superior virility of man.
SPEAKER_03Damn.
unknownShit.
SPEAKER_06But also, I feel like those people would not trust any knowledge a woman had.
JakeWell, I mean, that's why it has to be idetic memory. Like there's no trust issue.
SPEAKER_02You can go and check back in the book and it's the exact same thing. Yeah. Yep.
JakeOtherwise, you're right. Couldn't trust a woman.
SPEAKER_02No, you really couldn't trust a trust.
JakeUnless her brain's all fucked up. That is that is fine.
AntheaIs she live? That is the question. That's a really good question. We do.
SPEAKER_02You're right.
JakeYou're right.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Um Hey, what's Emma Watson been up to lately?
JakeI think just living her best life. I think she's one of the- I think she's one of those celebrities that's just like, I'm kind of kind of like. I'm done. Yeah, if I'm remembering right.
SPEAKER_02She's, I mean, she sacrificed her youth to us as a public.
AntheaSo I her and I mean, all three of the, you know, they all did. Rupert Grint bought an ice cream truck. Yeah, but he's also in a movie that's a good thing. That's right. Yeah. He's like gotten back into acting a little bit. Cool for him, like if he wants to.
SPEAKER_02Like, that's super good.
AntheaDo that on your own time. Yeah, I think.
JakeI'm sure it's wholesome, but I feel like I'd be horrified if I saw Rupert Grint pull up in an ice cream truck.
AntheaI like a whole lot of concerns.
JakeYeah.
AntheaNo, I think it'd be fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'd I'd find it charming.
AntheaUm, a couple of uh I have some I have some thoughts based on all of our all of our reactions, but I'm gonna save them for the end, I think. I think for wind up. Fine, no spoilers. Um, annotations. Uh the Baconian Project is a term coined by bioethicist Gerald McKenney in his book To Relieve the Human Condition, Bioethics Technology, and the Body. Uh, in his words in the introduction, quote, the imperative, the Baconian imperative, is to eliminate suffering and to expand the realm of human choice. In short, to relieve the human condition of subjection to the whims of fortune or the bonds of natural necessity. This is a very academic work. I am not going to I did not read it in time for this episode. Okay. I'm probably not going to read it. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um but I can say straight from the fucking start that Yakowski doesn't believe in expanding human choice.
AntheaBecause he thinks he does. Oh, of course he thinks he does. I say more.
SPEAKER_02Um, well. What brings you to this conclusion? Okay, well, a little bit of a something from off pod from offline, which is when we were talking about Yakowski writing about the lottery in his fucking sequences. Um, which is that basically, okay, look, buying lottery tickets is not super rational in the classical sense.
JakeOh, we're talking current day lottery, not Shirley Jackson.
SPEAKER_02Not Shirley Jackson. Yeah, though.
JakeI was I was a little worried about him writing about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder if he's ever thank God he's never read a word Shirley Jackson.
AntheaI was gonna say, he, I think he also left school before the time most people get or have to read that short story.
SPEAKER_06And it's really good. Yes, Leslie. Do NPCs get choice? Ooh.
SPEAKER_02Ooh. Well, okay, so so just about the lottery stuff, is that basically like people were saying, like, yeah, Kathy was saying this is not a rational thing to do, which is just buying lottery tickets. Yeah, buying lottery tickets. Fine. And like, well, and other people said it's fun though. And we can buy a little fantasy that, like, oh, for like five bucks, like, ooh, I can think about maybe I'll be rich. And that's just a fun thing for people to do sometimes. As long as it's some of the cheapest forms of gambling, as long as it doesn't become a huge problem, which it can for some people. And I think like, you know, what I Anthony and I had talked about was sort of like, you know, if people understand one, like how unlikely it is that you will win the lottery, and two, what some of the pitfalls are for people who do win the lottery so that you can be prepared, like, then okay, sure, do whatever. But Yakowski is not satisfied with that. He it bothers him so fucking much that people make choices that he wouldn't make, which is something we can also see in his cryonics discussion. Yeah, a good callback. Yeah, thank you. Um, I've listened to our episodes a bunch of times. I'm juicing the numbers. Yeah, yeah. Um, but uh Wait, are you in Germany?
JakeBecause I've had questions about our German numbers.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I have okay. I'll say this fine. I have traveled to Germany using my Delta Sky Miles. That is Delta.
JakeThank you for those Sky Miles.
SPEAKER_06This episode brought to you by NordVPN.
JakeYou know, in Delta Lounge, you might be able to use some delicious Nair on your legs.
SPEAKER_02Nair. Now available in all Delta Sky Miles lounges.
SPEAKER_03That sounds really messy. It's a slippery proposition. Just try to taxi off of a runway slathered in Nair.
JakeA slippery proposition was the name of this chapter, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_02Girls aren't supposed to listen to those. Um girls are not supposed to listen to those. Um, so like, so uh sorry, I forgot what we were talking about.
JakeThey were talking about Nair, low-calorie Nair.
SPEAKER_02You can't eat Nair, Jake, it'll burn your throat.
JakeI can.
SPEAKER_06Sounds like a U problem.
SPEAKER_02Um, right, so like choice. Like Kazaki talking about choice. But he's like, but he's only willing. This is the problem with the whole Bayesian can't agree to disagree when you're a stupid fuck.
JakeYeah, sometimes if someone's been a little bitch, you have to disagree with them.
SPEAKER_03That's the only rational choice. Someone's a little bitch. It actually is it for the record, it's totally okay to agree to disagree about a lot of stuff that's subjective. Like, for instance, is it worth it to me to buy one lottery ticket every financial quarter?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Some people, most people would say, Well, I wouldn't do that, but it's fine for you to do if you wanted if that's something that is fun for you. Um, Yakowski can't fucking let this go. And so that makes me think that Yakowski is not actually into maximizing human choice because he only wants humans to maximize their rational choices, and their rational choices are only things that he thinks are okay. Right.
JakeWhere broadly anything that can fit into an equation that will, you know, be able to observe as being maximized.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, if you can fit it into an equation, that sounds so much like frankly, my boss, who my boss, by the way, used to suck, but is now great because it's a different boss.
JakeBut um I like the idea that there's just a human slot in your head that says boss. And like there's a different person there now. It's like, well, it says boss, so I guess I guess that's them.
SPEAKER_02Now Minji's in the boss spot. Um, and uh, and at certain times she's been like, well, okay, but if you want me to be able to communicate this to stakeholders, and I think that's kind of what this feels like.
SPEAKER_06Question.
AntheaAnswer.
SPEAKER_06If there's supposed to be one objective answer to like every question, according to these people, yeah. What is the what is the answer to olives question? Yeah! No, for fucking real.
SPEAKER_03How about pineapple on pizza yet, Kowski?
JakeWait, do you open the olives?
SPEAKER_06I give them a go every couple of years. I just get away.
JakeThank you. Yes. Except if they're not a good thing. Yes, the the little olives that don't taste like anything are great because they don't taste like olives.
SPEAKER_06If they're on pizza and I am drunk, yeah, we're good. But every couple of years I give it a go just to make sure I haven't changed, because this is how everyone's update your price.
SPEAKER_02You have to give yourself crises of faith.
JakeThe problem is they keep tasting like olives though, whenever I try them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is great. I think this is real big of both of you.
JakeAnd I love olives. Yeah, thank you. I am I am a true warrior, is what you're saying. Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so by these people's like treatise, there should be an objective answer to subjective punishment. I should be legally barred from buying olives.
JakeI think it's a punishment from Zeus.
SPEAKER_06But the oil is so good.
JakeYeah. Yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_02A sexy swan can come fly into my house and knock the olives out of my hands before I can put them in a salad.
JakeWhen Zeus punishes you with olives, make olive oil.
AntheaI'm gonna talk about Atlantis now.
JakeAlright.
AntheaI'm like Stargate, what? Just like one of the effects. No, I will I'll finish my thought very briefly about the term the Baconian Project.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Is where we started. Sorry.
SPEAKER_06Too many syllables, man.
SPEAKER_02Too many syllables. Oh good. Um uh I do like bacon. I mean, I like olives and I like bacon.
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, one of the one thing just one thing that McKenny says in the in the uh introduction to this book that I uh that I was like, oh, that's great, is um, quote, the problem is not technology itself, but our lack of a moral framework that can tell us how rightly to resist and appropriate it. He's talking specifically about medicine as technology because he's a bioethicist, and he's looking at issues like physician-assisted death and germline gene therapy. Okay. Because it's the 90s. Okay. Um, but I think that's a I think the idea that like technology isn't a problem. The problem is we don't have a moral framework that encapsulates it well is is very relevant to many things. Yeah.
JakeThis this sounds like someone that people are just rife to misinterpret. I think so. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I can confirm what's happening here.
AntheaLike, I didn't do a deep dive on this guy, but he seems he seems interesting.
SPEAKER_02Um I mean, as communicated through the quotes that you've just said, like, yeah, I don't have a problem with that at all.
AntheaYeah, yeah. Um, two, HP Moore is set in 1991, and to relieve the human condition is copyrighted to 1997. So unfortunately, in this universe, McKenney doesn't get the credit for the Baconian project. Instead, this tedious child has to.
unknownOh.
AntheaHate that. Now, but Atlantis. Atlantis. Okay. The affecting of all things possible that Harry said. Oh, okay. This ties back to fucking Atlantis. Is a direct quote from Francis Bacon's New Atlantis. Oh.
JakeAlso not the fun Atlantis, the Francis Bacon Atlantis.
unknownYeah.
AntheaI know. I was like thinking, ooh, I swim pretty girl. I'm tracking this because in the last chapter, Draco referred to wizards as the blood of Atlantis, and Harry parallels it with the blood of enlightenment. Um, and I in in the new Atlantis, which I presume is referring back to Plato's version of like the utopian Atlantis, um, Bacon describes the island of Benselem, just off the coast of Peru, where the men are all strong, the women are all good looking, and the children are all above average.
SPEAKER_06That's not how math works.
AntheaOh, it's I'm sorry. That is from Lake Wobagon.
JakeFrancis Bacon write that? That does not sound right.
SPEAKER_03Like Francis Bacon Francis Bacon wrote Lake Wobagon?
AntheaI bet he sexually harassed fewer women.
SPEAKER_03I bet so frankly, pretty early in the morning to allegedly harass more women than Garrison Killer alleged.
AntheaUm, everyone in Benselem is explicitly Christian, which every time everyone. Oh, I'm sorry, that is not true. There's one Jew. Oh my god, that's why you mentioned this. There was a Jew and he's cool. Yes. But he is cool because he's a Jew for Jesus.
JakeWait, sorry, where are we? I lost the thread here.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm sorry. But we're on the back of coast of Peru. All the men are strong and handsome, all the women are beautiful, all the children aren't fucking dumb shit.
JakeBut this this is Garrison Keeler's invention.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
AntheaGarrison Keeler thought there was only one Jewish. In Garrison Keeler's utopian fiction, Lake Wobagon.
JakeOkay, that it's Wobagon, there's one Jew. Okay, thank you. That is where I was confused where the Jew was.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03No, let me let me let me clarify something. That makes sense. There's not a lot of people. It's so important to so many people in our current leftist context to know where the Jew is.
AntheaYeah, right. Um, no, sorry. Let me let me re-fr let me restate all of this. Francis Bacon wrote this tract called New Atlantis um about a fictional utopian island called Benselem. Um where everybody is very smart and it's like it's it's it's his utopia, right? Um the central institution of Benselem is Solomon's House, which is basically a megalab, um, where people are doing science towards the end of quote, the knowledge of causes and secret motions of things and the enlarging of the bounds of human empire to the affecting of all things possible.
JakeGot a sneak empire in there.
SPEAKER_02I doubt it. I was like, I was with you until you said empire. Yeah, yeah.
JakeAnd I I take empire to mean project here, and he's just so empire-pilled that it becomes.
AntheaIt's 16 something, right? Like, yeah. He didn't know all the shit that was gonna happen. About yeah, yeah. He didn't have a full sense of how bad Empire was.
SPEAKER_02That things were gonna break so bad.
AntheaYeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um He was like, I thought Empire was just a way that people were gonna do more science.
unknownRight.
AntheaYeah. Um, I listened to the I listened to this. Thank you to LibriVox for you know, somebody recording uh this. It's pretty short, it's pretty dull. Thank you, LibriVox. LibriVox is great. It's it's it's boring. Like it's I'm not gonna recommend it unless you're like really, really interested.
SPEAKER_02Unless you're really hard up for like 17th century utopian work. Is it 17th?
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like early 1600s. Um I don't know a lot else about bacon. Um, he is one of the progenitors of uh also I'm vegetarian. Um I he's one of the progenitors of the scientific method. Some people think he wrote Shakespeare's plays. That's my second Shakespeare reference. I'm really getting back to my roots. Is he a vegetarian? I don't know. I am. Okay, but then I'm just curious to know what that is.
JakeI think it's a bacon joke.
AntheaIt's a bacon joke. Oh I don't know a lot about bacon.
JakeYeah.
AntheaOh! I I whiffed that one pretty well. It came to me in the moment.
JakeI was like trying to key in as like, is there a point of trying to acknowledge the joke? I feel like I'm gonna interrupt the flow if I acknowledge the joke.
AntheaI interrupted my own flow. I'm sorry. So Hermione points out that she hasn't seen Harry do anything intelligent yet. Yes!
JakeWhat a berry sue.
AntheaUh to the text. There was a certain silence in the compartment. So you're asking me to demonstrate my intelligence then, said the boy after a long pause. Hermione nodded. I warn you that challenging my ingenuity is a dangerous project and tends to make your life a lot more surreal.
SPEAKER_02Get fogged, Harry.
AntheaI'm not impressed yet, Hermione said.
SPEAKER_02Get him.
AntheaUnnoticed, the green drink once again rose to her lips. Well, maybe this will impress you, the boy said. He leaned forward and looked at her intensely. I've already done a bit of experimenting, and I found out that I don't need the wand. I can make anything I want happen just by snapping my fingers. It came just as Hermione was in the middle of swallowing, and she choked and coughed and expelled the bright green fluid onto her brand new, never-worn witch's robes on the very first day of school.
SPEAKER_02Oh no, nothing.
JakeNot a girl's clothes. Definitely they have some magical way to clean things.
SPEAKER_02Well, so Also, why would that that is just kind of him just like saying shit. So I don't know why she's gonna be.
AntheaIt's weird that it makes well she she's reacting to wandless magic, the concept of wandless magic.
SPEAKER_02I guess. She specifically, given how much she's read about the wizarding world, would have would have a specific reaction to that, but it feels very forced.
AntheaYeah. Yeah, I don't disagree. Um also we we know Harry is taking advantage is taking advantage of comity's magic. We a lot of stuff happened in the last uh chapter, so you may not remember, but comity disappears is like disappears after you spit it, after you spit take. Right. We know that. Hermione doesn't. Um so she spit takes, Harry snaps his fingers, and the soda disappears from her clothes. She remembers that in her books, one of them had a theory that Harry has all of Voldemort's power stored in his scar. She comes to the conclusion that he is doing dark magic, she freaks out and she tries to leave.
SPEAKER_02Valid. I mean, good for her, but also like how kind of fucking stupid to give her like this is probably a bit of a reach, but this feels like Hermione is, although she is making a reasonable inference, um it feels like Harry is a Spanish conquistador tricking her into believing that he's a god or something.
AntheaWow, you're so correct. I'm not even gonna be like, that's interesting you said that, because it's just it's a hundred percent correct. That's not I don't think that gets called out very ex as explicitly in this chapter as I might want it to. Um, but yeah, he's he's he's pulling a nasty trick. But he has a reason for it. Oh, good. Okay, that's it. And he's an asshat. Uh I mean, uh that's a that's an explanation, not a reason. Yeah uh to the text. The boy's smile faded. It was just a trick, Hermione. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to scare you. Her hand halted on the door handle. A trick? Yes, said the boy. You asked me to demonstrate my intelligence, so I did something apparently impossible, which is always a good way to show off. I can't really do anything just by snapping my fingers. The boy paused. At least I don't think I can. I've never actually tested it experimentally. The boy raised his hand and snapped his fingers again. Nope. No banana. Bananas.
JakeSo random. Banana.
AntheaHermione was as confused as she'd ever been in her life. The boy was now smiling again at the look on her face. I did warn you that challenging my ingenuity tends to make your life surreal. Do remember this the next time I warn you about something.
SPEAKER_06I hate that.
AntheaYeah, I hate that.
SPEAKER_02Like, okay, but all she's learned is that he's a little prick.
JakeYeah, and her life isn't surreal. She was just frightened about the possibility of dark magic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, in a reasonable way, given the information that she has access to. Which, like, what is Yadkowski saying that if you have information and it points you towards a conclusion and you freak out about it, that that's bad. In that case, why is he so scared about an advanced super AI?
JakeAnd like, why what's the association between like, oh, I need to demonstrate my intelligence? This is a good way to quote show off. Like that is not like demonstrating intelligence. That is Yep.
AntheaThat's demonstrating power rather than intelligence. Yeah. Right. And that's a good point. I guess I hadn't tracked that.
SPEAKER_02No, he goes straight towards manipulating her and and lying fundamentally.
AntheaRight, because that is I I do think that that's a very much something that that he associates, he associates manipulation with intelligence.
SPEAKER_02Which is deeply fucking messed up because plenty of people who are manipulative possess a low cunning rather than like actual smarts. And also, Harry knows how he defines intelligence because he asked her to fucking say what the fuck quarks were or whatever.
AntheaRight.
SPEAKER_02He could have listed off the periodic table of elements or something.
AntheaRight.
SPEAKER_02He could have, uh, I don't know, he could have done a bunch of stuff.
AntheaWell, so what he does here is he sees that she's confused and he challenges her. He because she was like, Maybe I'll maybe you can help me with my research. And he says, You think you ha a little bit, let me get you the voice. You think you have what it takes to be a scientist in your own right, with or without my help? Then let's see how you investigate a confusing phenomenon. I uh Hermione's mind went blank for a moment. She loved tests, but she'd never had a test like this before. Frantically she tried to cast back for anything she'd read about what scientists were supposed to do. Her mind skipped gears, ground against itself, and spat back the instructions for doing a science investigation project. Step one, form a hypothesis. Step two, do an experiment to test your hypothesis. Step three, measure the results. Step four, make a cardboard poster. Step one was to form a hypothesis. That meant try to think of something that could have happened just now. Alright. My hypothesis is that you cast a charm on my robes to make anything spilled on it vanish.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, Hermione is an L-O-M.
AntheaOh no, that is very much like I read about this. Uh, what's the most likely thing to sit to come out here?
JakeBut yeah, I feel like that is again dunking on her of like, well, she's not really smart, she can only remember things.
SPEAKER_02Right. She's like, this is what people are supposed to do in this particular situation. And like BT dubs, yad yad, that is something that like neurospicy slash autistic people are known to do, is like try to do social mirroring, but you because you don't really have like the social intuition, you go on pattern recognition. Um do you know, just that's what I read.
SPEAKER_06No, I was gonna say, given how much I relate to everything uh about Hermione in the last you know 46 words, um we've made it so far. Yeah. Um I can't tell if he's dunking on the Tism.
SPEAKER_02Exactly! Exactly. No, so far I am still 100% team Hermione. I can tell you he's not dunking on the Tism.
AntheaAt least he doesn't think he is.
SPEAKER_02Um, he doesn't think that he was racist.
AntheaI mean, right. He doesn't think a lot of things. He doesn't think a lot of things. He doesn't think a lot of things. He's a bad thinker. Um she tries a couple of things. She uh she tries she theorizes that um uh that the clothes might have a charm on them that keeps them clean. Uh and so, and then to test that hypothesis, she pours some soda onto uh Harry's Yeah, yeah, yeah. She pours some Harry is like, you can use my robes so that you don't ruin anything. She pours some soda onto his robe, the soda disappears. She says, Okay, I've tested my hypothesis. The robes have magic on them that keeps them clean. Wait.
JakeThat is the kindest thing Harry has done in a entire story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but also, wait, I'm sorry. So, but that wouldn't test the hypothesis that Harry cast a charm on her robes.
AntheaUh, she she immediately like she does, she thinks maybe you cast a charm, and then she immediately discards that hypothesis. Sorry, I've been trying to summarize this because there's stuff I want to get to. No, but that's like, so yeah, I I misled you.
SPEAKER_02No, no, that's okay, but she discards it, and then why does she think the thing about Harry's robes?
AntheaShe comes up, she comes up with it with the theory, maybe you cast a charm. No, I didn't see you cast any magic, so I don't think that could be it. Okay. Um, and you have told me that you can't actually do wandless magic. That was a lie that you told me. So smart.
SPEAKER_02And I should definitely trust you because so far you've been a very trustworthy. Yeah, you've been a stand-up dude.
AntheaSo then she theorizes maybe all of the robes have a charm that will keep them clean. Just wizarding robes.
SPEAKER_02Wizarding robes to be fair, would be a pretty cool thing to put on kids' robes. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Amazing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That would be like, that would be great. I mean, look, if wizarding zoolily existed, which is a company I used to work for, um, that would be a great thing to do. Absolutely. It'd just be like all of our kids' bodysuits are charm to just just yes.
AntheaLike those, like keep applesauce off them. Those carpet or those rugs that I get podcasting. Yeah, ruggable time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Love those. Not sponsored by them either.
SPEAKER_02We're not yet.
AntheaUm Fanta.
SPEAKER_03Ruggable andor Fanta andor Nair hit us up.
JakeAlso, I think Delta were also. Delta! Delta's in the mix.
AntheaAnd Nord VPN. So she comes, so she We've sold out this episode. Yeah. So she hypothesizes maybe it's the robes. She pours some soda onto the robes. The soda disappears. She says, that proves my hypothesis. The robes are charmed to keep themselves clean.
SPEAKER_02Why would the soda disappear?
AntheaOh, oh, but she always tame soda.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it always. Yeah. So it's not just like she didn't pour like like uh just like regular tonic or whatever or something like that.
JakeDelicious Diet Coke.
SPEAKER_02Delicious Diet Coke. I am immediately I'm picturing Diet Coke and Fanta in kind of like a cage match. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they could just kiss.
AntheaOoh, yes, enemies to lovers, Diet Coke and Fanta. Yes. They're probably owned by the same people. I don't know. I bet. Um and Harry says, incorrect. That's not what happened. That's not actually what happened.
SPEAKER_02Ooh, it's so cool that Harry happens to be luckily through the narrative positioned in such a way that he just gets to be right.
AntheaThe sad thing is, said the boy, you probably did everything the book told you to do. Oh get fucked! I hate it. You made a prediction that would distinguish between the robe being charmed and not charmed, and you tested it and rejected the null hypothesis that the robe was not charmed. But unless you read the very, very best sort of books, they won't quite teach you how to do science properly. Nope. Well, well enough to get really get the right answer, I mean, and not just churn out another publication like dad always complains about. Oh my fucking god. So let me try to explain, without giving away the answer, what you did wrong this time, and I'll give you another chance.
SPEAKER_06I want to punch him.
AntheaI I wanna put him through a wood chipper. She was starting to resent the boy's oh so superior tone.
JakeSo then she slit his throat.
SPEAKER_03A good fanfic, honestly.
JakeAlright, cool. Let's wrap. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03The first couple chapters.
JakeThe ending was sudden, but I approve of it.
SPEAKER_03The first couple chapters are pretty tedious, but the payoff is like, ooh, chef kiss.
JakeI like the part when the kid died.
SPEAKER_03Because Hermione killed him.
AntheaSo now we're going to play a game. Um kid jigsaw. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, isn't this whole podcast not really a soft drop in many ways?
SPEAKER_03It's so true, it's so true.
AntheaSkeptical noises. Let's play a game. Oh. I'm gonna read you the rules as they are given to Hermione. I have a rule known to me but not to you, which fits some triplets of three numbers, but not others. 246 is one example of a triplet that fits the rule. The way the game works is that you give me a triplet of three numbers, and I'll tell you yes if the three numbers are an instance of the rule, and no if they're not. You know that 246 gets a yes. When you've performed all the further experimental tests you want, ask me as many triplets as you feel necessary, you stop and guess the rule. And I'm using the same rule that he is. So it is written down, it's it's set.
SPEAKER_02So I love when men test my intelligence with numerical traps.
JakeMy solution to this would be if we weren't in this write a Python script to output every combination of three numbers and just hand that sheet to Harry and have him circle the ones. And then evaluate based on which ones are circled.
SPEAKER_02Can I have an LLM do this for me?
JakeSo, I mean, in the spirit of that, 247?
AntheaYes. Yes.
Jake249.
AntheaYes.
JakeHow long are you gonna let me do this?
AntheaAnyone else wanna try some?
SPEAKER_02357. Yes.
JakeIs it any three numbers?
SPEAKER_0211, 19, and 28. Yes.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
JakeIs it any three numbers?
SPEAKER_06Is that your guess?
JakeYes.
SPEAKER_06Negative one zero one.
JakeYes. Okay, let me guess. Um A zebra twenty-two.
SPEAKER_06No.
JakeOkay.
SPEAKER_06One one one one.
SPEAKER_02No. One point five, two point five, eight point seven five. Yes. God damn it.
JakeTwo to the third, log three. Um I can't think of a differential quickly. But another equation thing.
SPEAKER_06Square root of two.
AntheaI don't know enough math to answer that one.
JakeOkay, but in theory, potentially.
AntheaUh I I I can't answer that one. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Pie cherry pie. Such a sweet surprise.
SPEAKER_04I'm tempted to say yes.
SPEAKER_02I mean, okay, honestly, look, I'm sorry to take this back to eugenics. But what?
SPEAKER_03What? Okay, so in one of the eugenics documentaries that I watched that's on eugenics the musical, my YouTube playlist, my famous YouTube playlist.
AntheaIt will be in Elisa's show notes. You can find at ecpoetry.tumbler.com. Dot Phantom dot.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm trying to get people to actually read them. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Ecc poetry dash or ec poetry dot tumbler.com. Yeah.
unknownThat's all.
SPEAKER_02It's a real this is a real place. It's a real place. You can actually read stuff. Now what level of value it'll be to you? That's between you and your god. I shouldn't have tried to play this game with you after everyone has been drinking. Um, so here's the deal. So, like, basically, this heiress goes in for an appendectomy. And during the appendectomy, the nurses start asking her all these questions, like, what's the longest river in the United States? Okay. And she was like, What the fuck does this have to do with appendicitis? Sure, yeah. Uh, you have to assume. Oh my god, were they sterilizing her? And because she scored a zero on all of the tests, they sterilized her without her consent. Holy shit. Yeah.
AntheaLike they gave her a hysterectomy, I assume.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
AntheaI I don't know exactly what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02Or whatever, they but they but they sterilized her without her consent, and part of this deal was because she was set to inherit and have her heirs inherit her father's money. Oh my god. But her mother stood to gain from her not having any heirs. Oh my god. So all I'm saying is that, like, a circumstance that affects test taking is if you haven't convinced the person taking the test why the fuck it matters. Fair enough. Fair enough.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's not a knock on you, that's a knock on Harry. Yeah. By the way, now that you've said I haven't done anything intelligent, step one, I'm gonna do a stupid trick on you. Step two, now you actually have to prove your intelligence to me. Because, like, oh, you have some cool dictionary book knowledge, but like, are you really smart? I don't know.
SPEAKER_06I mean, I don't think he is.
SPEAKER_02No, he's a fucking moron, which is actually the highest grade of IQ according to the 1920s.
AntheaYeah. Alright, so we've got one guess that it's any three numbers. That the rule that the rule is any three numbers.
JakeYeah, I didn't quite realize I was locking in, but sure, let's say.
AntheaI know, but I have to. You can do more tests if you want to.
SPEAKER_02No, but I'm kind of with any three numbers because you said things that weren't numbers and Ampheus said no. And for all the fucking rest of us, it was like yes.
SPEAKER_06Is it any three irrational numbers?
JakeYeah, I was about to guess square root of negative one and negative infinity.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what an irrational number is. All numbers seem irrational to me on some level. Fair. An irrational number is one.
AntheaWhat was that triplet that you had just now?
JakeUh square root of negative one, negative infinity, and that's another number. Two.
SPEAKER_02Are those irrational? And pi. Oh, I said pi, and then changed. In that order?
JakeYes. I gave a clue.
SPEAKER_02I know, I did it. Yeah. No.
JakeOkay. Uh 5, 1, 2.
SPEAKER_02No. Okay, so series of actual numbers that scale up in terms of value or what the fuck ever?
JakeYeah, three ascending numbers, potentially.
SPEAKER_02Any other guesses? 2, negative 5, 18. No. Ha ha! We locked in?
JakeYeah, that's my guess. Sure, whatever. For the sake of listenability, I'm gonna say yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough.
AntheaFair enough.
JakeThis will be fun one to end it by.
SPEAKER_02I spend my life on this.
AntheaIn fact, I'll wage you $10,000. No, that's it. Oh, I actually I forgot part of the rule, so I think I actually did break the rule a little bit, but the rule is three real numbers in increasing order, lowest to highest.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Oh.
AntheaOkay. Which is what you said.
SPEAKER_02But we did figure that out through you telling us yes or no.
AntheaAnd I had a suspicion as I was like, I'm gonna do this, I'm you know, I'm gonna play this game with you guys. I had a suspicion that you guys would get it because you're Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02I was pretty sure that these because I feel like you mentioned that earlier at some point in the previous weeks, and I was like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_06I feel like it would have been on brand if it was three rational numbers. I mean not three real numbers. Yeah, yeah.
JakeAnd also, to be fair to the haters, if you didn't ask in that order, I might never have gotten it.
AntheaSure. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. I I fucked up. The test, the test taker, the test giver is also a part of the equation.
JakeThat's honestly how I would take tests like this is to just kind of keep poking until an edge peels away.
SPEAKER_02Right. Well, right. The test giver is part of the equation, except Harry is desperately trying not to be perceived. Because as soon as he is, then it's like, I mean, it's devastating. I know that Yadkowski is writing both sides of this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it's so interesting that Hermione is like, I don't think you've done anything intelligent yet. Yeah. And it's like, that's 100% accurate. Yeah. And then Harry's.
JakeI don't think that's supposed to make her look dumb in someone like Yudkowski's eyes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. But I think it's because speaking of insecurities as a reader, I think that like that's the kind of thing that like Yuakowski has to put out here to make it seem like he slash Yud Harry is the kind of guy who can deal with that kind of challenge. But like really, he's in full control of the entire playing field here. Um, and when he's not, he doesn't do that well. Right. Because like, look, and looking at his fucking sequences of like Oh, Yadkowski, you mean? Yeah, yeah, Yudkowski, Yadkowski. Because, like, for instance, he has this thing where he's like, I'm gonna dunk on the lottery, and then he has to write a subsequent sequence where he's like, Hey, you guys, I dunked on the lottery, and yet you keep disagreeing with me. Right. That's not acceptable. So I'm gonna, and then he proceeds not to actually debunk anything that they've said, he just makes fun of it. Right.
AntheaSo this is interesting because we're gonna get into the commentariat for a minute here in in in this.
SPEAKER_02So Oh, you mean the people who are primed to think he's racist?
AntheaWell, this is the overcoming bias uh commentariat from back in 2007, so probably not.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I sense no heroes are coming. Yeah.
AntheaUm, yeah, no heroes, there's no heroes here. Um Portia hit us up! How you doing, girl? So, uh, so yeah, we so you guys, you you all got it, right? Like you tested out, um actually I'm a little curious about because you did things you were like two four or okay, so two, four, six, two, four, seven, two, four, eight, and you were like, how long are you gonna let me do this? Yeah. Um Right.
SPEAKER_02And by that point, I was like, okay, so it doesn't have anything to do with the relationship of the numbers to each other. Right. So sorry, I had my mic way far away from me. So it doesn't have when Jake said that, I thought, oh, it doesn't have anything to do with the numbers relationship to each other per se.
AntheaRight, right. Um, and then you uh you did try out some uh some negative numbers.
SPEAKER_02Negative numbers, some fractions.
AntheaYes, yes, yeah. Uh are fractions real numbers? I can't remember the definition of real. Okay.
JakeYeah, they're they're not integers. They are like like real, like numbers, imaginary numbers are ones that are like that you can't really like plot on a. Let's like pi explain it better.
SPEAKER_06So to complete my uh sentence for like three minutes ago for a rational number is a number that can be expressed as a fraction, as a ratio. Okay. That's that comes from. Um, so pi is a rational number. Pi is irrational because it doesn't terminate.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. Okay. Right. So it's a terminating number that can be expressed as a ratio. Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Okay, okay.
JakeWait, what about fractions that like have repeating like okay?
SPEAKER_06So no one, so no one will come after me. Yes, 22 over seven is also a way to express pi as a ratio. However, yes, yes, as a decimal, pi does not terminate. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, okay. That just gets you close. It gets You're about. Also then you get a secondary European pie day on the 27th or 22nd of July. That's okay. Oh, that's fun. That's really fun. I love that.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I'm gonna celebrate both. I love pie.
AntheaYeah. Okay. Cool. Um Hermione, meanwhile, uh, she tests uh she tests a couple of things. Um, and her the conclusion she comes to is uh the numbers have to go up by the same amount each time. It doesn't have to be two. So she tests like two, five, eight, ten, twenty, thirty. So she also is like, maybe there's a relationship between the numbers that is okay.
SPEAKER_02She but like Jake kind of immediately disproved that. Yes, yeah, yeah.
JakeSo I'm smarter than Hermione. I appreciate you saying that.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, step one, yes. Yeah step two. Please don't have a 10-year-old. Yadkowski is making a quote unquote Mary Sue, but he's also making her as a like he's also making her a um a Heinlein co-protagonist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where the only reason that she's fucking there is to make the male protagonist seem better.
AntheaAnd it it matters he he seen it matters that she is very, very cool and smart and powerful because it made then when he is even more cool and smart and powerful, it is just so poker.
SPEAKER_02Trinity was so cool and fuckable, but Neo is even cooler.
AntheaRight, right. So uh he gives her the rule three grill numbers in increasing order, lowest to highest. Hermione's jaw dropped. What? I'm sorry, what? She had the distinct feeling of something terribly unfair having been done to her. Yes, she's right. That the boy was a dirty, rotten, cheating liar. Yes.
JakeBy the boy you mean the writer.
AntheaWhen she cast her mind back, she couldn't think of any wrong responses that he'd given. What you've just discovered is called positive bias, said the boy. You had a rule in your mind and you kept on thinking of triplets that should make the rule say yes. But you didn't try to test any triplets that should make the rule say no. In fact, you didn't get a single no, so any three numbers could have just as easily been the rule. Hey. It's sort of like how people imagine experiments that could confirm their hypotheses instead of trying to imagine experiments that could falsify them.
SPEAKER_06I hate where this is going.
AntheaThat's not quite exactly the same mistake, but it's close. You have to learn to look on the negative side of things. Stare into the darkness. When this experiment is performed, only 20% of grown-ups get the answer right. And many of the others invent fantastically complicated hypotheses and put great confidence in their wrong answers since they've done so many experiments and everything came out like they expected.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna need a fucking citation for that because a couple of drunk people who didn't coordinate with each other fucking figured that out.
AntheaI we're not a typical crowd. We're not typical, but come on.
SPEAKER_02I'm not a math person.
AntheaI barely know how to act. I honestly think that might be helping you.
SPEAKER_06Like, so Okay, can't go further afield if your field is small.
AntheaHey, I love that. Enrichment for my enclosure. Um, so a couple things. Um, one, you will more commonly find his bias described as confirmation bias rather than positive bias. Yeah, 100% strange that he calls it positive bias. Um, I'm sorry, you're forgetting that Yakowski is the most special boy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's gotta come up with his own terms.
SPEAKER_06If you call it positive bias, you can't make the joke. I just learned about confirmation confirmation bias, and now I've seen it, I see it everywhere.
AntheaThat's really good.
SPEAKER_02Um, I just took a statistics class and I learned that correlation and causation aren't the same thing. Oh, it's a good idea. Sounds like the class helped. Not sure. XKCD. A sponsor of this podcast. I mean, may as well be. Um my life is sponsored by XKCD.
SPEAKER_03If you go look at it.
JakeOh, you should you should see their YouTube shorts.
SPEAKER_02Okay, everybody fucking go to YouTube right now. Close the podcast and go to YouTube and type XKCD.
JakeUnsubscribe, go to XKCD.
SPEAKER_03Subscribe.
AntheaIt's really, it won't work unless you unsubscribe first. Uh so you call so this section is very much a just a rewrite of one of his sequences, of one of his things in the sequences. Oh thank goodness. Um where in the sequence in the essay in the sequences, he just describes the 246 test. Um and he and he's so he's using positive more like you would like on a in a medical test. Like it's positive as in confirming the presence and actual or actuality of something.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
AntheaHe justifies this by saying, quote, it seems to me that the phenomenon of trying to test positive rather than negative examples ought to be distinguished from the phenomenon of trying to preserve the belief you started with. I don't know why. I think Yeah, why? Uh like fine.
JakeI I start spaced out and started thinking of algebra.
SPEAKER_02I'm that's really fair. Yeah. Like um What's the difference between trying to like because to have a positive value, you would have to be thinking of something that qualifies as positive. Right. And then you're confirming that.
AntheaAnd a positive is basically the existence of a thing. Right. And he uses the term confirming in the in HP Moore.
SPEAKER_06So is he just being really tedious about explaining falsifiability? Yes. Okay.
unknownYes.
AntheaThank you, Leslie.
SPEAKER_06I'm so glad you're here.
AntheaNobody in the comments seems to take issue with the with using positive bias instead of confirmation bias.
SPEAKER_02However, of course not, because there is fucking cultists.
AntheaMany of them take issue with the validity of the 246 game as proof of irrationality. Many of them are like, I think this is a I don't think this is a good proof of what you're trying to prove. Because, generally speaking, the subjects of the game are making a reasonable assumption that when they are told that there is a rule about these numbers, that means an arithmetic rule. And it's you Well, that sounds like a you problem. Sure. Well, and that's why I'm saying Alisa, as being not a math person, might actually have an advantage on this, on this test, on this game. Right, because you're thinking of a- You don't think of you don't you're not like you don't think of algebra. Like you think of what's a you you go straight to what are other possibilities for you're you're sort of you're sort of looking at these not as you did think about like do these numbers have a relationship to each other?
SPEAKER_02And yeah, but as soon as Jake ruled out that they have a relationship to each other, I was like, well fuck, okay.
AntheaRight.
SPEAKER_02And then and then that opened you up to open opened the whole space up to But to be fair, initially I was like, these numbers have to have some kind of relationship to each other in a math way.
JakeRight. Yeah, well, like I was approaching like I was you know committing a yud-yud sin and I was approaching it with computer scientist brain, which is like one of these will be an invalid parameter. Like that's why I was trying to do like a square root, a negative imaginary number. Like one of these won't won't be accepted by the method, but it's the method of rationality, if you will.
SPEAKER_02You inspired me to start looking trying to start doing fractions.
JakeYeah, so the answer really to the problem is to collaborate, like science, I guess.
SPEAKER_06And also on the scientific method, if we're not doing the um computer science language, it's gonna be you looking for false for the falsehood, for falsifiability.
JakeYes, yeah, yeah. I was I was digging for a no.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, okay.
AntheaYeah, which is and and that's the thing.
SPEAKER_02Like, so we got a so we have a science person professional. I'm pointing at Leslie. We've got a person who remembers algebra, I'm pointing at Jake. Don't again, don't put that in my a person who uh might remember algebra, and then we've got and edit. Yeah, we've got our we've got our MC.
JakeWe've got our A Shakespeare human. A Shakespeare human.
SPEAKER_02Basically, we've got someone with a degree in dramaturgy, Anthia. And then we've got me, a poet, and then together, we all basically found this thing. We found it. Yeah.
JakeWe make a really weird lopsided Voltron.
SPEAKER_02Yes, exactly. Yeah, together we are one half-melted Voltron.
AntheaI I think overall, like, we are dunking on this, and I think with good reasons. I also think that it's a fine way to teach the principle of falsifiability.
JakeLike, at core. I think it's a neat thought experiment. Yeah. It's a shitty way to gatekeep this potential friend you just met.
AntheaYeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm totally with Jake on this. Like it's not, yeah, there's no problem with that. But also, like, there's nothing about Hermione so far except that Yadkowski is intent on on portraying her as a deterministic computer model. Um like there's nothing that there's nothing that says about anything that we saw in the setup of who Hermione is that would indicate, ah, this is a person who's I mean, I guess like she has some inflexibility about like meeting people and she has but she and she has like social awkwardness. But there's no real clue that like that look. She could say, Well, there's no clear way of doing this, but that doesn't that could be seen as like she's a deterministic computer program. Or she's 10. Right. Or she's a very smart girl who's maybe been burned a couple times before and doesn't really understand how the world works.
JakeUm Yeah, well, I mean, and I think there's a reason why Harry didn't test Ron this way, didn't test Draco this way, but it's suddenly testing Hermione this way. Maybe the same reason he was shitty towards McGonical.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh. Like, Draco doesn't have to show any math or pass any tests to prove that he's worthwhile because he had fucking manipulation to do this.
AntheaYes, because he shows off a form of intelligence that Harry respects.
JakeWell, obviously, he's a dude.
AntheaNo, 100%. No, but like I think that uh he shows off a penile form of intelligence.
JakeHe'll one day have an erection.
AntheaOoh, and then he'll be raping. Canonical. Um I but I do think it's also interesting that Hermione and McGonagal both in the text present some challenge to Harry in a way that that neither Ron Ron disagrees with him on stuff. Ron is like, sports are great, and Harry doesn't bother to engage with that. McGonagal like is McGonagall, I mean McGonagall presents a challenge insofar as she's an adult who presents an obstacle to him, but he also uh has enough respect for her to be like, let me teach you something.
SPEAKER_02Well, if we're thinking about if we're thinking about this as a story that is taking place within Harry Potter fan fiction world, yeah, um Yakowski has to prove to people who uh have been eating, sleeping, and breathing that Hermione is the smartest person within this entire literary universe that actually she's not shit. She's just a fucking computer program, and Harry is really smart, right?
AntheaYeah. Um that like like I think I think going back to the Heinlein thing, like you this is we're in the we're in the world of Harry Potter fanfiction. It is widely acknowledged that Hermione is the brightest witch of her age.
SPEAKER_02Um But actually, there's an even brighter wizard. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_06Harry rationalist, Evans Varist fucking whatever. Which is a I mean, aside from this version of Harry, that is objectively false. Which pit. Um, that Harry's like the brightest wizard of his age. Oh yeah, absolutely.
JakeOkay, but heck, how if you considered what if his aunt was hot?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes.
JakeThat single point of departure makes him so much smart.
SPEAKER_02What if his aunt had actually scored some good dick?
JakeYeah. What if she was like half as hot as Lisa's mom?
SPEAKER_02No rat would be safe.
AntheaSo, um, so yeah, so we're learning we're learning the concept of false viability.
SPEAKER_02Uh and uh Harry invites Hermione to Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, it's stupid to give a person um just out of the blue a single mathematical test and then be like, by the way, this is why you're not smart. Now it's not math, though. That's the whole point.
AntheaIt's not a mathematical test.
SPEAKER_02It's a reasoning test. It's reasoning, so actually it's even worse. Your brain, your whole brain is bad. And like BT dubs, yes. Do I do I have some past bad experiences of men trying to tell me that I wasn't intelligent because they had some fucking bar that they wanted me to jump over with no clear reason given why, except that if I managed to jump over it, maybe they'd fuck me. Like, yeah.
JakeI'm saying Lisa, you shouldn't know all the Dragon Age characters. Like, it's a reasonable thing.
SPEAKER_06See, I think I think the misjudgment here from those men is that you are tired. There will be no bar jumping.
SPEAKER_02Alistair!
JakeSee, the thing is, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I think you're right. Her name is Sarah.
AntheaActually, or Jacqueline? I don't know. This is actually I think this is actually a really important point because like in terms of one of the things about uh Harry Azer is that the Please get Harry. This is that the world uh the the world has up to this point in the in this story has always arranged itself so that he is ultimately right, even when challenged, right? Yeah so even so Hermione presents a what we all agree is a reasonable response to him coming in and being himself, which is you seem annoying and I haven't seen you do anything intelligent. Then he plays a dirty trick and uh and is like, well, how about I test your intelligence? Oh, you think you're so you think you can do science without me? Uh let's see you do science then. And then the thing that makes this the world is arranging itself to to fit uh Harry Azer's needs is that she does not say, no.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. The idea of like, I mean, here's the thing, here's the thing that I think could happen here. Is like, so he starts off by doing this whole fucking tell me about the sequence of numbers, and she's like, Okay, well, in the 14th century, what was the biggest problem facing Hogwarts as an institution? That's what I want to say.
JakeIt's always sequences with this guy.
SPEAKER_02I know. Um, or like, okay, uh, if that's the case, then what's the what's the biggest problem that presents itself for wizards who are attempting to operate from X to Y? Or like, you know, just a number of like any magical question, or like any number of things. Like we can all play fucking games with each other. And I think like what's interesting economically is that if Harry were to knowledge share and he and Hermione were to be Bayesian equals in this case, the first thing wouldn't have fucking worked at all. Because she'd be like, Oh, this is comedy. I know how it works because Yeah, I was thinking it was weird that she has not heard of this thing that exists.
JakeIt seems common in the wizarding world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think it it seems fine. Like, she's a muggle and she's common, and she's like, what's interesting to me? And like it frankly makes much more sense to be like, I'm gonna read this reference book about the history of the place where I'm going, as opposed to I'm gonna check out a soda. Um, but it turns out for whatever fucking reason that Harry's actually right and she's wrong, because in this particular interaction, his his knowledge is more valuable than her knowledge because it allows him to dunk on her.
AntheaI and I think in a in a perfect world, both of like they're both needed for investigating this. I don't know how it went in your fanfic, Leslie, but in terms of in like in order to effectively investigate what the fuck is going on with wizard with with magic in the wizarding world, you are going to need someone with an anthropological lens that very clearly lacks.
SPEAKER_06Yes. Yeah, what were you gonna say, Leslie? Oh, this is super unrelated. But also, um, to the point of the bullshit in my fanfic, um, Torchwood had a device. Wait, a device that did what? Yeah that that could um take readings uh that included whatever the uh like spectrum of magical like oh yeah whatever hell yeah anyway the the thing on my nose was if you if um someone has aphantasia do they have a harder time operating? Oh, because you have to picture the place.
JakeOoh and I would say probably, yeah. Yeah, they would say criteria.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But maybe maybe they're better at doing other stuff. Like maybe they're totally immune to bog arts. Right? Yeah, ooh, yeah, yeah. Which, like, so this is an example, B2Bs, of imagining how different people can have different skills that in different contexts may be advantageous. Exactly.
JakeRather than just comes back to collaboration, yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Rather than and diversity, rather than one person having the right axis of knowledge and everybody else being a fucking casual.
AntheaRight.
JakeOr an NPC.
AntheaI'm gonna nitpick a plot hole that I did not from from something that none of you have any reason to know because I didn't read it. Do it! When he meets the only information actually, I did read enough of it. I did I did read one thing that you that you have reason to know. So the only information Harry has going in is look for a first-year girl named Hermione Granger on the on the Hogwarts Express. So the information he has is girl, 11 years old, named Hermione Granger. And he does, and like when she's like, I know what the quarks are, and why are you looking for Hermione Granger? He's like, Aha, you're Hermione. I don't see any reason why he should come to that conclusion. Oh yeah. Because he does not know that she is smart, he has not been given any information to get to come to that conclusion. Then he says, I'm Harry Potter, I know that doesn't mean anything to you, which leads her into, oh, I've read these books about you. Which also doesn't make any sense because he has no reason to know that she's Mongol born. Yeah, that's pretty weird. It's a very strange, and and there's there's uh even with even with the with some of the spoiler knowledge I have, I don't think it makes any sense for him to be like uh to come to the conclusion you shouldn't know who I am, because everybody every single other person he has met has known who he is.
JakeYeah, this is an inconsistent character written poorly.
AntheaI mean, like News at 11, but I gotta call it out.
SPEAKER_02I was listening to it this morning and I was like, wait a fucking minute. What you're both forgetting about is that Harry is um smart.
JakeSo I did forget that he was right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you consider that he was right? He's right. Like yes.
SPEAKER_02He can be wrong about like some stuff, maybe hypothetically. Yeah. Especially if like annoying fucking readers with their uh insecurities have to come calling it out because they've been trained to think that this fanfic is racist. Right. Right. But um, but like otherwise, apart from that, like when it's something that like Yokowski has decided is okay, then uh he he can't be wrong. Yeah, correct. Correct. And like he also doesn't have to show a chain of evidence or reasoning. He doesn't have to show his work. Are you kidding me? Yeah, because we're gonna be a good one. What is he some kind of girl?
SPEAKER_06Right, right. Yes, correct. No, because we're just telling.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I do think it's still, I mean, I said this already, but I think it's fucking crazy that like, yet again, this I mean, it's just the Kowski lottery thing again in his sequences where somebody is like raises a good point that, like, hey, people can buy a lottery ticket just because it's kind of fun for them and it's low investment, it's low risk. There's low odds of reward, but it's kind of just a fun thing that they can do.
SPEAKER_06And he if you get scratchers, then you get to live with the scratchy. My dad used to let me do the scratchy thing because I'm not sure. Oh my god, that's exactly right. It can be really fun for people. Yeah, yeah. Signs were there.
SPEAKER_03I'm sorry, I think every right-picking person agrees that scratching the scratchy thing is a good feeling.
SPEAKER_06Yes, correct, and get perfectly around the edges.
JakeYeah, I mean, I feel I feel like three bucks for a little bit of hope is the best bargain, like in that particular way.
AntheaWhen people are like, I can I can I can pay three dollars for some dopamine. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04He's like, oh, have you considered we could do something much more elaborate and stupid, and then you could have years of dopamine.
JakeConsider reading The Lord of the Rings.
SPEAKER_06Listen, if you don't have your own dopamine, Stormbot is fine.
SPEAKER_03The Bible sucks. Read Lord of the Rings, dope my lottery tickets. Um, but then drink fanta- I can do all things. Drink Nair.
SPEAKER_06Don't do that.
JakeRub Fanta on your legs.
SPEAKER_06I mean, if you have to get anything, this is how we get ants in Delta.
JakeDrink an airplane. I believe in you.
SPEAKER_06Do you want ants? This is how we get ants.
JakeYeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so.
SPEAKER_03I'm sorry, I got confused for a second.
JakeThis episode sponsored by the movie Ants.
SPEAKER_02Don't get it twisted. Um, no, but like, if you but like, so so in that in the case of like the lottery stuff, like, he doesn't actually debunk anything that anybody said.
SPEAKER_03He just goes off onto this long, like, oh, well, if you want to have dopamine, why don't we have lotteries take place every five years? And they could be based on the decomposition of a falling star or like whatever the fuck, right?
SPEAKER_06This is I hate it here.
SPEAKER_03Almost literally in the sequences. Pretty close. Yeah, thank you.
JakeThat is also exactly what he sounds like too. That's that's a good way to.
SPEAKER_03I almost played a clip of him for this episode.
JakeOh, I never want to hear him. I never want to hear him.
AntheaI'm pretty positive that my impression is really good. I would have to war. I was gonna, I was gonna be like, do you guys want to hear him talk?
SPEAKER_02No, I never want to hear him talk. Um, I think my impression is great. So, second, so like, so then we get to the point where like, here we are with Hermione being like, I don't think you've done anything intelligent. And then he's like, but you didn't know how much I can lie to you. Step one. And then he's like, and by the way, now that I've lied to you, which is definitely a sign of being intelligent because I've fucking did a trick on you based on something you have no reason to know about, because I myself didn't know about it until 10 minutes ago. Um now you have to prove yourself to me. And it's like, I'm sorry, I'm I did my time dating guys in college who had red Ion Rand. So, like, I'm not gonna do this anymore.
AntheaIt's I mean I don't have to do this with you. I this is definitely not what he's do. You know, he's not doing this on purpose because he doesn't know. But this is so dumb! There's something I think for This is little bitch behavior. There's something tragic about the uh the depiction of a of a young girl having her first encounter with this kind of guy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely. No, and that's exactly why no, that's a great That's why I keep pulling on these experiences that I've had. Totally. Because it's like, oh, this kind of interaction is shaped like the kind of interaction where boys tried to convince me, or young men or whatever tried to convince me that I was stupid and I was shallow and that I wasn't that the only value that I could have is the value that they were willing to invest in me.
JakeYeah, you get some bro jumping out of the shadows like a math rumble stilt skin being like, solve my math puzzle backwards, or else you'll be cursed.
SPEAKER_03Solve my puzzle and then I'll stick my penis in you. Well, that'd be great.
JakeYeah.
SPEAKER_06I feel like I'm so lucky that I'm the kind of autistic that that kind of thing would be like, you haven't um convinced me that I should care, so deuces.
AntheaWell, I was gonna say, I think it takes a I think it takes a special kind of person and perhaps a special kind of brain to not be like the first time you encounter that person to say, nah, I'm good.
SPEAKER_02No, definitely, and I didn't I didn't have that because I was trying to figure out how to be a real girl.
JakeYeah, well, I feel like a lot of times if you uh try to approach people with decency, if someone comes at you this way, it's like, okay, well, I mean, I guess it's fair that they're asking me this, otherwise they wouldn't be a good thing.
SPEAKER_02100% like, yeah, we're all we're all good faith here, right? Yeah. Right, right. And I think that that is what He wouldn't be asking me this if it weren't like really important to him.
AntheaRight.
JakeYeah, he wouldn't be giving me a Faye riddle if the solution wasn't reasonable.
AntheaAnd I think that there, I think that that is, you know, that's a that's a piece of, again, I think unintentional psychological realism. Like, I think actually, what like what what is happening is that Yadkowski has a point that he needs to make in this, and so he is arranging things such that they that the point he needs to make gets made. But there's an unintentional psychological realism of Hermione being like, yeah, I I love tests, and I have never been given a test by anybody who was doing it for shitty reasons. Therefore, I will take your test seriously. And she takes it very, very seriously. He asks her, Do you want to take another shot at the original problem? Quote, his eyes were quite intent now, as though this were the real test. Hermione shut her eyes and tried to concentrate. She was sweating underneath her robes. She had an odd feeling that this was the hardest she'd ever been asked to think on a test, or maybe even the first time she'd ever been asked to think on a test. Which is also shitty, but like it's also rude about he doesn't like the normal school system.
SPEAKER_02And Harry is inspiring real thought in her for the first time. Yeah, exactly.
JakeYeah, I know, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Um I'm sorry, fuck it. Yakowski, you didn't fucking go to most of school. So, like, what do you know about what happens there? And what do you know about like what people can think of or not think of who participate in that system? Yeah.
AntheaUh ultimately, her experiment, she thinks about it and she goes, I need to come up with an experiment where I would expect the soda not to vanish. Because what I am trying to prove is uh why the why it vanishes. So she decides to pour some soda onto the floor uh and see if it and she expects it to not vanish.
SPEAKER_02That's actually interesting because I don't know if Comet T A K comedy with a DY does it have to be drunk? Like does it have to touch your tongue and or throat for make the funny thing happen?
AntheaEvidently it just disappears after at some point, you know, within a few seconds after leaving the can.
SPEAKER_02So when it so it leaves the can, does it have to make contact with a physical object?
AntheaI don't know, that rule is not clearly established.
SPEAKER_02Um, well, Jesus Yukowski, get on it. Uh get on it, Yukowski. I thought that you thought this was important.
AntheaUh Hermione took the can and poured a small bit of pop onto the floor. A few seconds later, it vanished. Then the realization hit her, and she felt like kicking herself. Of course! You gave me that can. It's not the robe that's enchanted, it was the pop all along. The boy stood up and bowed to her solemnly. He was grinning widely now. Then, may I help you with your research, Hermione Granger? I uh Hermione was still feeling the rush of euphoria, but she wasn't quite sure about how to answer that.
JakeAnd then Hermione spent the rest of her school career trying to not talk to Harry and sort of avoiding him in social situations.
SPEAKER_04Oh, we wish.
AntheaOh, that'd be so good. Right, girl! Yeah, yeah. So I like so yes, so he's like, You've proven yourself.
SPEAKER_02Now I will uh now I will uh concede to Now I'll prostrate myself before you, but only because I've already proven that I'm superior to you. So that if you accept my prostration, that will just we'll both know that's a ruse. Yeah, yeah, more or less. So I'm gonna make you submit yourself to me. Yes. But not in such a not in such a callo way. Right, not in an obvious way. Not an obvious way as to demand your submission. I'm going to make you feel like I deserve it. Yeah.
AntheaMm-hmm. They were interrupted by a weak, tentative, faint, rather reluctant knocking at the door. I hope it's Neville. Get us out of here. When Hermione pulled the door open, she was greeted by a trembling young boy, who looked exactly like he knocked. Excuse me, said the boy in a tiny voice. I'm Neville Longbottom. Yes! I'm looking for my pet toad. I I can't seem to find it anywhere on this carriage.
JakeI love to make a hypothesis about your toad.
AntheaNo, Hermione said, and then her helpfulness kicked in full throttle. Have you checked all the other compartments? Yes, whispered the boy. Then we'll just have to check all the other carriages, Hermione said briskly. I'll help you. My name is Hermione Granger, by the way. The boy looked like he might faint with gratitude.
JakeAnd Harry's like, helping people's dumb. He's gotta think about toads instead.
AntheaHold on, came the voice of the other boy, Harry Potter. And then Hermione and Neville pushed him out the window. I'm not sure that's the best way to do it.
SPEAKER_03At this at this Neville looked like a little bit of a girl, shut the fuck up.
AntheaAt this Neville looked like he might cry, and Hermione swung around, angered. If Harry Potter was the sort of person who'd abandon a little boy just because he didn't want to be interrupted.
SPEAKER_02You're the same age.
AntheaYeah, yeah, that does stick out to me as well. So Harry suggests that in that it's probably gonna take a long time to go look at look in every carriage, but if they go talk to a an older student, like a prefect, uh, they might know spells that would make it easier to find a toad. And so he's like, go ask prefect.
SPEAKER_02Uh hasn't Hermione read all these fucking books and stuff and she knows all this shit? She knew all those potion ingredients.
AntheaWhy doesn't he ask her? That's a fair question. That's a fair question. Yeah. Do you think you can find it? You can through the Do you think you can make it to the prefect's carriage on your own? asked Harry Potter.
JakeI've Do you think he can walk in a straight line down a train? Or are you a too dumb of a girl? Do you know how floats work? Okay, it's whatever. I think it counts. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think counting. I don't know because my parents are insane.
AntheaI've sort of got reasons for not wanting to show my face too much. Suddenly Neville gasped and took a step back. I remember that voice. You're one of the lords of chaos. You're the one who gave me chocolate. What?
SPEAKER_02What what what? Oh yeah, wait a minute. They they asked Harry at the end of the last chapter if he wanted to join the Order of Chaos, and then literally nothing fucking happened. Yeah.
AntheaWell, now we're finding out what happened with that.
SPEAKER_06You know, more telling, no showing.
AntheaYep, yep. Oh my god, are we gonna get a flashback? That'd be so cool. That would be way cooler than what is about to happen. That would be showing. Harry Potter turned his head from the window and rose dramatically. I never, he said, voice of voice full of indignation. Do I look like the sort of villain who would give sweets to a child? Yes. What the fuck is that? Neville's eyes widened.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, I just is that supposed to be.
SPEAKER_06So you are also a child.
SPEAKER_02Is that is it like a joke that like haha villains don't give sweets to children and therefore it's funny that Hold that thought. Neville's eyes. Ha ha ha ha, Yakowski.
AntheaNeville's eyes widened. You're Harry Potter? The Harry Potter? You? No, just a Harry Potter. There are three of me on this train. Neville gave a small shriek and ran away. There was a be brief pattering of frantic footsteps and then the sound of a carriage door opening and closing.
SPEAKER_02He shrieked. Look, Neville is kind of uh flaccid for a couple of the first books. But he doesn't scream and run away from stuff.
JakeAnd we've established Draco's flaccid now, too, but eventually that's gonna change.
SPEAKER_02Yeah!
AntheaAnd when and when it does, uh-oh, watch out! Hermione sat down hard on her bench. Harry Potter closed the door. I just think that's Neville slander. And then sat down next to her.
JakeAgreed.
AntheaCan you please Leslie's a fanfiction expert? Can you please explain?
JakeI also want to interrupt Anthea.
AntheaCan you please explain to me what's going on? Hermione said in a weak voice. She wondered if hanging around Harry Potter meant always being this confused. Oh, well, what happened was that Fred and George and I saw this poor small boy at the train station. The woman next to him had gone away for a bit, and he was looking really frightened, like he was sure he was about to be attacked by Death Eaters or something. Now there's a saying that the fear is often worse than the thing itself, so it occurred to me that this was a lad who could actually benefit from seeing his worst nightmare come true, and that it wasn't so bad as he feared. Hermione sat there with her mouth wide open. And Fred and George came up with this spell to make the scarves over our faces darken and blur like we were undead kings and those were our grave shrouds. She didn't like it all where this was going. And after that, and after we were done giving him all the sweets I bought, we were like, let's give him some money, ha ha ha. Have some knuts, boy, have a silver sickle, and dancing around him and laughing evilly and so on. I think there were some people in the crowd who wanted to interfere at first, but by sander apathy held them off at least until they saw what we were doing, and then I think they were all too confused to do anything.
JakeOh good fuck. This is like I thought I sort of had arachnophobia, so I just kept throwing spiders at them, saying, You are valid, you are valid.
AntheaFinally he said in this tiny little whisper, go away. So the three of us all screamed and ran off, shrieking something about the light burning us. Hopefully he won't be as scared of being bullied in the future. That's called desensitization therapy, by the way.
SPEAKER_06I hate it here.
AntheaThat's not desensitization therapy, that's just assault.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but doesn't it work good as therapy when you don't explain to the person what the fuck is going on? So they have no context in which to interpret what's happening.
SPEAKER_06Also, Harry, you are also a small boy.
SPEAKER_04I love what I I didn't pick this up the first time, but I love that he calls him a lad. Yeah, yeah.
AntheaThey're all children. Also, I don't believe that Harry wants to help anyone. Okay, she hadn't guessed right about where this was going. The burning fire of indignation that was one of Hermione's primary engines spouted into life. Even though part of her did sort of see what he'd been trying to do. That's awful. You're awful. That poor boy, what you did was mean. Corra!
JakeYeah! Yes! You can tell she's wrong because her rage is hot. She has burning fires of indignation instead of cold rages.
SPEAKER_02Cold rages that make you good at logic.
JakeShe has girl emotions, which are bad.
AntheaI think the word you're looking for is enjoyable. And in any case, you're asking the wrong question. The question is, did it do more good than harm or more harm than good? If you have any arguments to contribute to that question, I'm glad to hear them, but I won't entertain any other criticisms until that one is settled. I certainly agree that what I did looks all terrible and bullying and mean, since it involves a scared little boy and so on, but that's hardly the key issue now, is it? That's not consequentialism, by the way. It means that whether an act is right or wrong isn't determined by whether it looks bad or mean or anything like that. The only question is how it will turn out in the end. What are the consequences?
JakeYeah, I was literally just going to say, we all know there's no issues with consequentialism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's totally fine and never has bad outcomes. Let's ask Neville if he felt empowered by that fucking experience. Because based on the way he showed up at this fucking train cabin, it doesn't seem like it.
SPEAKER_06Seems to have not done well. So in the first book, when we meet Hermione, she fixes Harry's glasses, and this would be a great opportunity for her to break his glasses.
unknownYes!
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, she's not gonna if she and Neville aren't gonna throw him out the train, at least she could break his glasses.
JakeAnd should we have Canon Hermione fight this Hermione?
SPEAKER_02I think Canon Hermione should fight this Harry. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then that'd be a joke. She, I mean, she's canonically got a pretty good right hook, right? Yeah. Yes, because she punches out Draco. Punches out Draco, yeah. Yeah, which, by the way, that just goes to show that Draco's a little bitch, as opposed to like Miss Draco, who would get like punched by her and be like, one of my tutors said that that's foreplay. I believe that. That I think is correct. Which, like, um, and then Miss Hermione, I guess, would watch other Hermione beat the shit out of Harry and be like, I don't know what to do. Is the rule that it's real numbers?
AntheaI'm only a girl pewter. I'm just a girl. I'm just a girl. Hermione opened her mouth to say something utterly searing, but unfortunately she seemed to have neglected the part where she thought of something to say before opening her mouth. All she could come up with Girls, am I right? All she could come up with was what if he has nightmares? Honestly, I don't think he needed our help to have nightmares. And if he had nightmares about this instead, then it'll be nightmares involving horrible monsters who give you chocolate. And that was sort of the whole point. Oh my god.
JakeI just like the whole thing where it's like she tried to think of something really cruel to say, but since she wasn't smart enough, she just said something really considerate instead. How dumb. Yeah, it's silly.
SPEAKER_03She was being thoughtful about it. She tried to think of a real argument, and instead she was like, but how will he feel? Right, and that's not a real argument.
AntheaHis response is one, he was gonna have nightmares anyway, and two, if like, I'm sure that his nightmares will resemble the thing that we did, which is not does not follow even a little bit. That's generally not the thing you want. But it's better than that. I mean, one, that. Two, like, when is the last time you had a nightmare that actually resembled what happens to you in real life in a similar situation?
SPEAKER_06I don't know, I don't remember my dreams.
AntheaWell, fair enough. I genuinely am like, does Judkowski not remember his dreams?
SPEAKER_02Like, that's not how dreams work. I guess to be fair, uh, the nightmares that I have, I never actually forgot to wear my wig to pursuit Seattle. Right. And the nightmares that I have is where I've shown up and I forgot to wear my wig.
SPEAKER_03Or like I've shown up wearing something that's like the wild rose lesbian bar sweatshirt that I own, and I'm like, oh fuck, why'd I wear the lesbian bar sweatshirt? So the anti-LGBTQ church.
SPEAKER_06You just tell them it's irony.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yes, yes. She's like, um, I'm actually a triple agent.
SPEAKER_02Um, no. So, like, yeah, I also think like, I'm sorry, like, how so Harry seems to have made a snap judgment that is like based on implicitly somehow knowing Neville's whole deal, which he has no reason to know. At least he has I mean he has correctly identified that this is a timorous child. A timorous child, but like if you take someone who's timorous and you don't know their situation, it's like okay, maybe they're timorous because it's because they've been sheltered. And then in that case, this type of like quote unquote exposure therapy might be helpful. Right, potentially. Yeah. Um, but what if they are timorous because they've been abused? Or what if they are timorous because just a bigger random example, their parents were tortured into insanity, right? And they've spent their childhood visiting their parents in St. Mungo's who don't recognize them. Yes. Uh yes. And their grandmother is like emotionally withholding. She's emotionally withholding. Listen, she was she's doing her best. She grew up during the Grindelwald years, all right. She doesn't, she's not equipped.
AntheaAnd one of her kids was tortured into insanity, so she's also not.
SPEAKER_02She's also not, it's like, yeah, exactly. It's like put on your own, your own safety mask or whatever, oxygen mask before you help the children, and then she forgot to do the part where she helps the children. Um, but uh, but like, okay, so like he has he has no knowledge of Neville's situation or his context. Yes. And doesn't think it's important. He has no idea that there's anything that might be important about Neville that would uh inform what strategy he and friend George should take that's based on what would be, I mean, ultimately, that on what would be quote unquote enjoyable for them. But on top of it, they kind of paste it on this idea of what would be good for Neville. But they don't show any indication that they intend to check with Neville and see how his life is going.
JakeYeah, it's totally just retroactive justification. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02All I'm saying is like, okay, what's the fucking Bayesian context for this? Is there anything that Neville could do that would prove to them? Like, what if he goes catatonic? Would they take responsibility for that? Or would they be like, wow, that child was just too broken to go to boarding school?
AntheaWell, or right, yes, like, hey, better. I mean, in the in the previous chapter, uh, Harry says to when when Petunia is like, Do you want me to go in with you? Harry is like, I should if I can't handle going onto a plane the train platform by myself, uh, then it's better to find that out now. And yes, so I think if if Neville had just had a full breakdown, well, they would have been like, hey, it's better that you find out now while you can still get home instead of when you're all the way in Scotland.
SPEAKER_02Well, and that is a fine decision for Harry to make about himself. About himself, like full access to his own context. Right. As opposed to, I think we should just haze people. Right. Because maybe they can't hack it. Whereas like people might be like, Yeah, I'm nervous about going to school, and like as long as people don't haze me, I think it'll be okay.
SPEAKER_06I also feel like we're doing the twins dirty here, because they wouldn't bully people like that. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. But that's not how they do, yeah. No, it's not how they do. They might have and I because I can't remember, they might have context, like they might know, and they probably know about the long bottoms. That's yeah, yeah. They wouldn't do that. Yeah, they torment adults, right?
SPEAKER_02Yes, not that they like I they're very anti-authoritarian in it, which is like cool and punk rock.
AntheaThey fuck with yes, yeah. They fuck with Filch, and Filch has some, you know, being a squib is a little sad, it's a little sad. Also, Filch does is like mean to the I was about to say he does bully children as an adult.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he has authority over them technically.
JakeThis seems like another example of like, oh, it's cool and okay to be cruel to people. Yes, like it's funny and fine. As long as you're smart, you can be mean to people who aren't as smart as you.
SPEAKER_06Especially if they're NPCs. Yeah, exactly.
JakeAnd here's a bunch of flimsy, like, well, you know, here's why it's fine, hand-wavy things that are not rational.
SPEAKER_02It's also, again, another thing. I'm sorry to keep bringing this back. I at some point, I this time in my show notes, I'm gonna have to link to John Rawls or something. But like, this is an idea where like it is actually Yakowski, I'm positive, doesn't think this, but it's actually morally bankrupt to impose goods from outside. Outside an individual. It is because what that is, is like that's fascism. It's fascism to tell somebody else what's good for them. Like and like I, you know, there's a number of steps in between, right? Like we could say, oh, but I think it's good for people to eat lots of fiber. And if people don't agree, it's still because science still shows it's good to eat lots of fiber. But like if you force someone to have a particular diet, even if it is beneficial for them, it is still not ideal to do it without their buy-in.
AntheaIt's it's interesting to for a like Yagowski definitely overlaps a lot with libertarianism. And so it is interesting for him to be like, well, but like what are the consequences? And if the consequences are more good than harm, then uh then that's fine. If the consequences can make that choice for other people.
SPEAKER_02If the consequences are more good than harm according to the case, it's not a libertarian idea. According if the consequences are more good than harm according to the calculus that I've done without asking the person involved, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then like it's totally fine.
SPEAKER_06Well, yeah, but he's an NPC and doesn't have the ability of choice. This is such an important point. Gotta keep it in mind.
SPEAKER_02Something that these that these fucking liberal philosophers didn't keep in mind is that some people are NPCs and some people are uh built different.
JakeYeah, I was just going to say, they don't consider some people aren't built different.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah.
JakeBuilt the same, if you will.
AntheaSo when after he's like, well, at least it'll be nightmares about monsters that give you chocolate, Hermione fails to come up with any further arguments, even though that's a ridiculous thing for her for him to say. Yeah, yeah. Like, and I guess to be fair, it doesn't say that she agrees with him. The line, going back to the text, is Hermione's brain kept hiccuping in confusion every time she tried to get properly angry. Is your life always this peculiar? She said at last. So she's not it's not even necessarily that she agrees with him. She's just like, I genuinely I've been confused. You've confused me to the point where Which I will say, like, uh I one of these days I'm gonna read you guys um um Bazy and Judo, uh, which is a short essay in the sequences that um fills me with rage. Uh but uh this this method of of just like being confusing enough to make people stop arguing with you.
SPEAKER_02Yes, being confusing smart sounding enough to make people start arguing stop arguing with you. That's what Yakowski did in his second um lottery sequence.
AntheaMm-hmm. Yes. And I think that you we the in in the in the Time article about um about sexual misconduct in effective altruism, uh, you know, some of the women in that were like they do these Jedi mind tricks on you, like to get you to agree to stuff that you would not otherwise necessarily agree to, like polyamory. Um and this feels in line with that. Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_02It's very I mean, we've talked we've been calling this out, but like, yeah, this also is part of like the point where you know what I just want to say to all the all the femmes out there. Um some people think quickly and think on their feet, and some people who are very, very smart. My sister has a PhD, and she's the kind of person who often needs to take some time to digest something and think about something, and then she can come up with a response. If somebody fucking puts you on the spot, that doesn't mean that they're right and you're wrong.
AntheaIn fact, I think I think that um all of the social psychology stuff that uh Yadkowski cites frequently, like influence and uh and thinking fast and slow would agree with that. What people like this are trying to do is trying to activate your system one fast emotional responses and keep you from making decisions with system two, which is take a minute, slow down, think about it.
JakeYeah, like I feel like kind of a lot of the rationalists have heard of it in general, and Yadkowski in particular seems to think that intelligence is a gish gallop of s of citing papers and philosophers and stuff like this. Like if you just say enough, you know, enough names, enough papers, then you have become smart.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And it's actually totally fine to fucking trick someone with information that you know that you have that they don't have.
AntheaSo, Harry Potter said, how much science do you know exactly? I can do calculus and I know some Bayesian probability theory and decision theory and a lot of cognitive science, and I've read the Feynman Lectures, or Volume 1 anyway, and Judgment under uncertainty, heuristics and biases, and language and thought and action and influ uh language and thought and action and influence science and practice and rational choice in an uncertain world, and Gdel Usher Bach and a step further out, and Yeah, and that's like the fifth time he's done this.
JakeYeah.
SPEAKER_02And then Hermione shoots him with a gun.
JakeYeah.
AntheaMuch to my annoyance, we don't like it describes it as like the quiz goes back and forth, like they they quiz each other about their reading list. Oh, that's cool.
SPEAKER_02So we don't have to hear what Hermione's books are. The part where they jab and counter jab and their repost and all that stuff is like, yeah, but like you don't have to be.
SPEAKER_03You don't have to watch the part where the girl gets one over on him. That would be embarrassing.
AntheaUnder almost any other circumstances, I would be like, yeah, like if he had written it in here, I would consider that bad writing. This is to on a technical level, it is good writing for one character to be like, here is a list of things, and then not to have another list of things. On a technical level, good writing. On an emotional level, really makes me mad.
JakeAlso, even better writing, don't have that first list.
AntheaRight.
JakeLike, at least in this case.
AntheaWhat I would love to have seen here is Hermione being like, Well, here is all of the books that I've read. Like for Hermione or for Harry to say, How much science do you know exactly? And then Hermione to start rattling stuff off. And then the quiz went back and forth. Sure. So that we get some indication that Hermione has anything of value to contribute here. Right, because we already fucking know he's read Feynman and read. I mean, right, yes. Also, this is not Vonnegut says that everything that happens in a story should be moving moving the story forward or revealing character, and this does neither. Well, it does actually a really important thing, which is remind you.
SPEAKER_02It reveals character in a bad way.
JakeIt's not revealing anything new. This has this has been revealed.
SPEAKER_02It reminds you that Harry's extremely fucking smart, and that if you want to be smart like Harry, you better read Feynman. Right. Yes.
SPEAKER_06I'm gonna say something that's gonna have people come after me and I'm ready for it. Which sounds like a whole lot of theoretical science, but not any practical science.
SPEAKER_02How fucking dare you? Because he said a physics thing once at the beginning.
SPEAKER_06Listen, I'm a biologist, man. Get wrecked.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_03I'm exactly a biologist.
SPEAKER_06This is true. I do have that.
SPEAKER_03And he's literally done work in the field and we're paying money as opposed to being like, as opposed to like grifting your fucking Patreon subscribers or whatever into giving you money to like theorize about an odd.
AntheaPlease, he did not grift Patreon subscribers. He grifted Peter Teal.
SPEAKER_03Actually, wait, I'm sorry, I'm gonna take all this back because why haven't you grifted Peter Teal?
JakeWhy grift Peter Teal when there's the fine folks at Phantom?
SPEAKER_03Why buy the cow when you can get Peter Teal for free, Phantom?
JakeIt was from the cow, you can milk delicious Phantom. That would have been a better better mix up.
SPEAKER_03So why buy the Nair when you can get the Delta for free?
AntheaThey are interrupted by Neville returning. He's crying.
SPEAKER_02No.
AntheaOh. Um, and he says that the prefect he talked to couldn't be bothered to help him.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that sucks. Also, when does Harry get shamed publicly for being shitty to Neville?
JakeYeah, and it turns out Harry's idea was bad and wasted time, and we should have just done what Hermione said in the first place.
SPEAKER_02Not in this chapter. Okay, I'm waiting.
AntheaTo the text. The boy who lived's face changed. His lips set in a thin line. His voice when he spoke was cold and grim. What were his colours? Green and silver? No, his badge was red and gold. Red and gold? burst out Hermione. But those are Gryffindor's colours. Was it Percy? Fucking Percy. Harry Potter hissed at that. Frightening. Like a Slytherin. A frightening sort of sound that could have come from a live snake and you. He is a parcel tongue.
SPEAKER_06It's true.
AntheaAnd made both her and Neville flinch.
SPEAKER_03I Harry Potter visibly alarms most people he comes into contact with.
AntheaI suppose, Harry Potter spat, that finding some first years toad isn't heroic enough to be worthy of a Gryffindor prefect. Come on, Neville, I'll come with you this time. We'll see if the boy who lived gets more attention. First we'll find a prefect who ought to know a spell, and if that doesn't work, we'll find a prefect who isn't afraid of getting their hands dirty. And if that doesn't work, I'll start recruiting my fans, and if we have to, we'll take apart the whole train screw by screw.
SPEAKER_06Meanwhile, Hermione's just gonna go find out.
JakeThat's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah, she has just quietly slipped out of the room and is now holding a frog before his model.
SPEAKER_06This guy's the fucking worst. I have to go.
AntheaThe boy who lived stood up and grabbed Neville's hand in his, and Hermione realized with a sudden brain hiccup that they were nearly the same size, even though some part of her had insisted that Harry Potter was a foot taller than that, and Neville was at least six inches shorter.
SPEAKER_06Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02Because he called him a lad. Because Harry's towering intellect made him seem so much bigger.
AntheaStay! Harry Potter snapped at her. No, wait, at his trunk. And he closed the door behind him firmly as he left.
SPEAKER_02Ha ha ha! You jerks, you thought that was sexist. That's your fault for being insecure.
AntheaHe was talking in the trunk! Aren't preconceptions lovely things? She probably should have gone with them, but in just a brief moment, Harry Potter had turned so scary that she was actually rather glad she hadn't thought to suggest it. Hermione's mind was now so jumbled that she didn't even think she could properly read History of Hogwarts. She felt as though she felt as if she'd just been run over by a steamroller and turned into a pancake. She wasn't sure what she was thinking or what she was feeling or why. She just sat by the window and stared at the moving scenery. Well, she did at least know why she was feeling a little sad inside. Maybe Gryffindor wasn't as wonderful as she had thought.
JakeI have nothing clever to say. This writing sucks.
SPEAKER_02End of chapter eight. That's why that's how you know you're talking to a protagonist when you feel upset and comatose, like incapable of action, and you when you have to dissociate for several minutes. You dissociate, and the only thing that you can grab onto that feels stable in the environment that you've suddenly been presented with is I guess he was right, and the thing I thought was good is actually bad.
SPEAKER_00My brain is hiccuping, and like I can't even think of what to think. It's just I don't know what to do.
SPEAKER_06Sounds like a good reason to never speak to this ass hat ever again. I don't that was unpleasant. Let's not do that again. Also, I love Harry.
SPEAKER_02It's a rational thing. I love fucking Harry and this being like, how dare an authority figure say that this thing isn't important? I'm the only person who's allowed to say what something's not important. Mm-hmm.
AntheaMm-hmm. Mm-hmm. End of chapter eight. Leslie, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for Leslie, how are you feeling among the committee of the damned?
SPEAKER_06My poor sweet Hermione.
unknownI know!
SPEAKER_06Okay, so here's here's the question that I She's like such a badass. This guy's just like she she her brain's broken because of reasons.
SPEAKER_02He made her a stupid LLM that got prompt spammed.
AntheaSo this is this is my question because I a reaction that I found very interesting to observe amongst you guys is as I aha, this has all been my experiment, actually.
SPEAKER_04Hashtag this is my design.
JakeWhat we missed was the control group earlier where Anthea was having this podcast with with herself.
AntheaI mean, like, I was noticing, like, like there's a lot of points in here where I like lost my mind in my notes, and then I was like, I don't have to do that, they're gonna do it for me. So I am the control group.
SPEAKER_07Well, there we go.
AntheaUh that's not a good way, that's not scientifically rigorous. Don't do that. Although there are an awful lot of scientists in history, I it seems like, who were like, I want to do this thing, but I can't get board approval to experiment on humans. I'll just do it to myself.
JakeMaybe most medical science, honestly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. No, to be. And them I salute. I no, I do too. I'm like, oh, I have to respect that. Yeah, yeah.
JakeGood enough for Bruce Banner, it's good enough for us.
SPEAKER_03You wanted to see how it would work on a person and the board wouldn't let you do it. Right.
AntheaUm, in many ways, uh, this this whole uh enterprise is just me um uh putting myself through a saw trap and then and then trapping other people. But okay, here's here's what I have to work together to get out. Yes. Yes. But here's what I found interesting, like, because this is also an experience I had, is this is the exact same author that we have been that that that we have been calling a little bitch this whole episode.
SPEAKER_04I don't know what you're talking about.
AntheaAnd there was a lot of stuff, especially in the first like two-thirds of the chapter before we got to all of the testing, where we were like, fuck yeah, Hermione, and we reacted very strongly and positively to what he was putting on the page. So what's different?
JakeSo I think what it is, is like he was trying to do a quote-unquote deconstruction of a Mary's suit. I think that part was supposed to be her being an unreasonably perfect character, and then the last third is Yadkowski's view of like, oh, this is more realistic to how an actual character would be amongst these staggering intellects.
SPEAKER_06Also, the primary function of fanfiction is to take the characters that you know and love and to put them in other different situations. These are not the characters that we know and love. They have their names and their faces, or covered with a scarf, whatever, but they are not the characters that we know and love. These are just strangers. So, from a fan fictionist point of view, this is incorrect. And Hermione being lovable, or at least, you know, human, kinda. She has she has the reactions that we would expect a human to have to Harry. So, thus far, is the only person that we've met who is meeting the criteria of a person we know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
AntheaLike she's the first PC we've met.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because as much as like there are some things that McGonagall said that were like, oh, those are funny. Like, broadly speaking, I like if I look back on sort of the totality of McGonagall so far, like in Canon, she's not a shoulder to cry on. She's not somebody who's deeply sensitive to the plight of abused children. She's a very stiff upper lip, kind of like not outwardly. Outwardly, yeah, exactly. Like, there might I totally believe that Minerva McGonagall, as presented in Canon, would do things to support abused or bullied students.
AntheaYeah, if you if I read a fic where she had Neville in her office every every other day to be like, hey, it's gonna be okay, you just gotta get through this. I know, I know everything is miserable, but I understand your situation. Yeah, but I would totally believe that fic.
JakeBut also telling him to keep calm and carry on.
SPEAKER_02Like she would have to be doing it in a really specific way, where like I think in a way where she'd be like, I have to trick him and myself into believing that this is not me emotionally reaching out to his emotions. Like, I mean, that's just my read. Like, I think there's other things that could be compelling, but I do think like I think reasonable fans can disagree. Reasonable fans can disagree, but the idea of McGonagall saying so many things in a soft voice trying to touch Harry, like I'm just like, I'm sorry, I don't believe that actually. Like, and at the time, I think we were like, well, this is like not the worst way to describe an adult behaving towards a child. So great. I do think that like, and and there were some really genuinely great lines. I think that thing about like your grandchildren would be losing the house cup is very funny, genuinely. It's a very good line, it's very meaningful. I like it. Yeah. Um but like, so all of that to say that the like, yeah, Leslie's totally right. I I really don't think I think that Hermione's reactions are some of the first, some of the first relatable reactions that we get. And also, like, I've mentioned this before on pod, but like all this stuff reminds me of the thing that Batman have done to me my entire life. Of um a fun, a fun thing that happened is like I don't believe you. I was not popular.
AntheaI don't think it was gonna be I don't think it's gonna be fun.
SPEAKER_02Uh it depends on how you define fun, I guess.
AntheaWell, how would Harry define it? I think you I think you mean enjoyable.
SPEAKER_02Harry would think it was super enjoyable. Okay, great. So, like, I remember being at this party after I had graduated from college, and this one dude, I wrote a poem about this, so you might remember this. Um, but uh this one dude just out of I don't know what it was about my vibes at this party, I don't think I was being that weird. But this guy was like, you know what your problem is? You have hot girl syndrome, you've had everything handed to you just because you're pretty.
SPEAKER_06And you're like, oh, you think I'm pretty.
SPEAKER_03And I was like, that's fucking crazy because I was an unlovable gnome in high school. That's wild. Okay, whoa.
JakeYeah, I think it's I mean, like, you've got some shoulder on your chip there, it seems like so.
SPEAKER_02All of this is to say that, like, certainly, like, someone might say, Alisa, this is your bias. Um, I would say these are experiences that I've had that lead me to recognize certain patterns.
AntheaSometimes bias is another word for learned experience.
SPEAKER_02Right.
JakeYeah, and sometimes it's which K-pop boy you like.
SPEAKER_02That's so true.
JakeYeah. No, that's that's a term for which of the K which members of K-pop. Oh, today I learned. I think I I think I'm using that right.
SPEAKER_02I think I probably would like the shy ones, but if there's like a weird one, I think maybe that would be the one. There's the bad boy.
AntheaThere's like a lot of guys in those groups, so there's probably there's gotta be a weird one, right?
SPEAKER_02How about a shy and weird one? Statistically.
SPEAKER_03Statistically.
SPEAKER_02Hell yeah. Ooh, or maybe one who has a sword or an animal companion and nobody else in the group has that.
SPEAKER_03Ah, yeah, that's my guy. That's my little guy. To Divian Art. Yeah.
JakeThe one dressed like Link from Legend of Zelda inexplicably.
SPEAKER_03Yes, everybody else is like leather jackets and stuff, and he's like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. That's the dark cloud theme.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So the point being that, like, I think that, like, you know, again, this chapter is like actually really realistic in the way that it reminds me so much of ways that manipulative guys in my life have tried to maneuver themselves into a position of authority over me. Even though, like, we could have just been friends. We could have just like, we could have just dated, we could have just like had sparks, we could have just done any number of things. But instead, it was like so important for them to elevate themselves over me and elevate themselves over other women in their lives. I also remember, similarly, uh, around the same time, that I think I had said something like, um uh, I think I gotta stop dating boys, I gotta go for men. And which is a very silly cliche thing to say. But at the same time, the dude I was talking to said, you know, when a girl says, I've gotta stop dating boys, I have to go for men, I instantly lose respect for her.
AntheaThat's it, that and that's why you're a boy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I and unfortunately, by that time in my life, I was like, that's interesting. Thank you for sharing that fact with me. Right. But like also all I'm saying is that, like, is like, you know, have you considered women? Everybody has or Fanta? Have you considered Fanta? Um, have you considered guzzling a bottle of Delta? Um, no, but like what I'm thinking is like everybody has strengths and weaknesses. Everybody has something to teach somebody else. Like, I know that Yankowski like truly doesn't believe that, yeah, but it's really true.
JakeYeah, much like NPCs, everyone has an elemental weakness.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Yes, um, and and like, and so this idea of like, I mean, it's all in there with his idea of like, you know, Harry does take eugenics seriously in the previous chapters because he tells Draco straight up, oh, we have genetics and therefore we'll be able to breed powerful wizards.
AntheaWe can fix your we can fix your problem.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, we can fix your problem with breeding powerful wizards because that's a thing that genes definitely do, and that it's valid to want. Yeah. Um, and so like this idea is skeptical in science. I mean step one. But also Like this this whole world is based on like you know I'm sorry that people were shitty to you for being intellectual and liking sci-fi. I'm genuinely sorry that that happened to you. People were shitty to me when I was young for being a nerd. I get it. It sucks. You don't like to think that the things that matter to you don't matter to other people.
AntheaYeah.
SPEAKER_02But the answer is not to flip it on its head and say that those people are actually stupid fucking NPCs who don't deserve to exist. And like only people who believe the things I believe and are into the same sci-fi novels I read and who agree with me are worth calling like human beings. That's not the answer. There are answers to your pain that aren't hierarchy.
JakeYeah, I mean some men will write probably at this point millions of words instead of processing their childhood trauma.
SPEAKER_02They'll do literally anything except go to therapy.
JakeYeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Correct. But also I feel like uh if you've consumed sufficient sci-fi and the whole point of sci-fi.
JakeWell, I think a lot of modern just reality is an example of a bunch of shitty dudes taking the wrong lessons from sci-fi in fantasy. I mean, yes, again, in this vein, look at fucking palantir. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah! A guy who looked at the Palantirian Lord of the Rings and was like, that's a cool idea.
JakeI simply wouldn't get corrupted by the Palantir.
SPEAKER_03Right, yes. You simply would just use them for information, and that would be that. Good day, Palantir.
SPEAKER_06Or since when did Sypha get political?
SPEAKER_03Grind.
SPEAKER_06Star Trek was like, listen, my guy. My dude, my guy, my brother.
SPEAKER_02Remember back in the day before politics when Star Trek just had one of the first interracial kisses on screen?
AntheaI mean, listen, like, even like, I'm gonna bring up Heinlein again because I think he's relevant to the thing that I I'm I'm the thing that I'm thinking about in terms of like, what what makes this night different than all other nights? What makes this chapter different than the other chapters? Is like uh in one, okay, d before I get too deep into that, um, uh, remember when sci-fi wasn't political and Starship Troopers wasn't fascist? Like, like Heinlein was a political writer, you know, very much. Uh uh, A Stranger in a Strange Land is also is like not fascist, but is political.
SPEAKER_02I don't think anything political happened in The Moon is a harsh mistress. He just laid out a libertarian moon society and a supercomputer who was able to launch a bunch of missiles at the earth.
AntheaI've never read that one. So I did. Cool, cool, cool, cool. That sounds right though.
SPEAKER_03But like, I I'm thinking about and I'm He definitely didn't talk about like specifically for a long period of time in that book, like the pitfalls of democratic committees.
SPEAKER_04Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, what a dick.
SPEAKER_02Um it's better just to have like loonies figuring it all out, which is what people from the moon. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
AntheaBut I I think that I I come back to the thing we were saying about Heinlein's women, uh, and and Heinleining as I call it, which I stole from my dad, like this whole observation about like Heinlein's women are very cool. Like Heinlein has a lot of very cool women in his books, and it is so that the protagonist can be even cooler than her.
SPEAKER_02Um your dad made up Trinity syndrome before it was Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I think about that because I think you commented that when I was posting about having read The Moon is a harsh mistress, and I was like, that's a good ass. It's a good ass point.
AntheaThanks, Jim. Um and like I feel like what happens in this chapter that is really interesting to me is that Yadkowski is a is is a good enough writer and a and a good enough thinker to understand and anticipate a lot of objections to his work and to his characters. And so he anticipates all of the ways in which Harry might be super fucking annoying and puts that into Hermione's mouth, and we are all like, thank God somebody finally said it. And that makes it seem like this is a like, like, in some way, I was I was as I was listening to everybody be like, Yeah, fuck yeah, Hermione, I was like, oh, is this better written than the other parts? And I'm not sure that that's exactly what's happening. I think it's just that we are finally getting an acknowledgement of base reality in a way that we haven't up till now.
JakeIt's up to Yeah, I I don't think this is necessarily in the spirit of no longer giving him the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, I don't think this highlights being a good writer. I think this highlights someone who is frequently, immediately, strongly disagreed with. Okay, that's fair, that's fair. Ready to prepare for people saying, No, you're wrong about this. Right. And like he is good at anticipating that because it happens a lot. Right. So yeah. A lot of the time because he's wrong, perhaps sometimes unfairly. Sure. But again, sure.
AntheaI mean, statistically, sometimes it's unfair. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think I think that's a great point. And we were we were talking about this in terms of effective altruism the other day, about how we were like, but what about these problems with effective altruism? And my take was I guarantee that someone has like thought of this counter-argument, and they have a a response to that counter-argument on lock, ready to go. Whether or not I agree with that counter-argument is a completely different question. But they but they are the kinds of people, and Yadkowski is the kind of person who, whether it's because they get disagreed with a lot and therefore uh know what the counter what the objections are going to be because they've encountered them, or because they've been disagreed with frequently enough that they have learned to be like, how might someone disagree with this? I better get out ahead of that. Either way, they are like, I am going to get out ahead of this.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
AntheaYeah. But that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that their core arguments are any better. It just means that they are trying to cut off the exits.
JakeYeah, it could just mean that you are digging deeper into the whole of your argument. Yeah. Like it doesn't mean that's necessarily more rational or more well thought out. It's just like I've decided this is what I'm thinking, I'm putting up the barriers around me to deflect what could potentially change my mind.
AntheaRight, right. And the fact that and the fact that at the end uh by by the end of the chapter, as you as you all have pointed out, like by the end of the chapter, Hermione is confused and dissociating and been and has been proven incorrect and uh and unknowledgeable by the narrative.
JakeYeah, character thoroughly assassinated by the answer.
AntheaYeah, yeah, yeah. Like that goes to this, like, he set he set he sets up, I'm going to like have all of these objections, I'm gonna take care of all of these objections so that I can be proven right in the end. That's my take on this chapter.
JakeYeah, I I I follow that too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, yeah, and I think like, I mean, to the point about us talking about, like, look, at a certain point, there are just issues that maybe Yakowski doesn't want to believe this, but there are issues that are just not falsifiable that we're just gonna disagree on. There's not gonna be an empirical way for one of us to say who's right and who's wrong.
JakeLike I think we said before, like the scientific method is great for testing things that the scientific method is great at testing. Yeah, it's bad at testing the other things. Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02There's other things that are at the heart of a lot of what Yakowski seems to be espousing based on what I've been exposed to so far, where it's like, okay, but like in terms of like at theism, he and I are just gonna disagree about what count what a belief even means. And there's not anything really saying who's right and who's wrong. Um I I I do think though that what is I mean, okay, so quick question Is his commentary about that conversation with the Orthodox woman? Is that in the sequences? Yeah. Oh my god, I can't believe he committed that to the sequences. Okay, but basically he talks about in this conversation, he's like, I had a conversation with an Orthodox Jewish woman. She was willing to talk with me, which was wild because I asked her a question, and she appeared to use her brain to think about it, which was very strange. Um, I am not even really making this up. Nah. Um the urge to throw punch is real. I know. And so he was talking about, and he says, he's so close to something real here, right? Where he says, I can imagine myself in the brain of like cannibal aliens, but I can't imagine myself in the brain of this orthodox Jewish woman who sincerely believes. And I think sounds like a personal problem. That sounds like a personal problem to Yakowski. And here's the deal Um for this stuff, like what he ends up doing is the same thing that he does to the Orthodox Jewish woman in the end, which is ascribe to her a number of mental processes that are not in evidence based on what he shares to show that she is deceiving herself and that her brain is an Escher painting instead of something that is reasonable and rational and informed by information from her lived experience, but that isn't the way that his brain would organize itself. Clearly not, because they come out of a somewhat similar social context and did not come to the same conclusion. Yeah. Um uh he does the same thing he did with the lottery, which is when people come at him to uh just uh make fun of the idea of lotteries rather like and and to drag it out to an absurd place rather than to deal with the arguments that they were making about like, is it bad for someone to invest a small amount of capital in a pleasant fantasy? Um and here I kind of see it with Hermione as well, where like uh he's decided, okay, so I'm seeing this obstacle coming. Like he sees the Orthodox Jewish woman disagreeing with him, he sees his own commenters disagreeing with him about the lottery, and he uh knows that he needs to say something about this because you can't just have this kind of thing going on in his community. Um disagreeing, having their own thoughts that's not very rational. Um as not very base base cash money of you. Yes, and so um, and so he and so he does the same thing, which is okay, I'm just gonna have the narrative prove that she's wrong. Yeah, but I guarantee that if Yakowski and I were in an escape room together, he would not be able to make such a clean set of counter-arguments.
JakeYeah, it's hard to do that when you've been asphyxiated through strangulation.
SPEAKER_02It's true, right?
AntheaLegitimate uh or uh monopoly on legitimate use of violence, of force.
SPEAKER_02Legitimate use of force, the monopoly on it, that's what I have. Yeah, yeah.
JakeWell, I got debs on illegitimate use of force then.
SPEAKER_02Great, nice. Fly Delta spirit.
SPEAKER_06Leslie, I want to thank you so much for joining us on this. I'm glad that I could um just make noises.
JakeAs promised, we do have several cases of Fanta for you.
AntheaUm be careful because one of them is secretly nair. Lisa and Jake, as always, I want to thank you as well for joining us on this.
JakeYeah, thank you for cat wrangling.
AntheaI try. And most of all, I want to thank you guys out there for listening. Our website is H P M O R and the Limits of Rationality.buzzsprout.com. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Pocket Casts, other other places. I don't know. I've I've got it on all the things. Um if you like the podcast, tell your friends. If you don't like the podcast, tell your enemies. Leave a five-star rating or review in places that let you do that. Um, yeah, and uh and we'll be back hopefully sometime soon, because I'm excited about the next chapter when Harry gets sorted. Not sorted! That was the previous chapter.
JakePhantom.
AntheaThe Harry Potter universe is copyrighted to J.K. Rowling, and Harry Potter and the methods of rationality and the sequences are copyrighted to become copycast making a copyrighted material.
